Current Affairs The Labour Party

[The Cowboy]

I find it entirely disheartening at how many of you are rubbing your hands with glee at the situation the Labour Party finds itself in.

You're talking about the party that has a long historic tradition of fighting for the empowerment of the working class.

You're talking about the party that gave us the National Health Service.

You're talking about the party that rebuilt this country after the second World War.

What do the Tories stand for?

I implore each and every single one of you to have a good hard look at yourselves and ask yourself:

Do I want to live in a country that's run with the interests of the elite few at heart, or do I want to empower my fellow man to do better and allow universal aspiration - a country where the possibilities are endless and fairness is ensued?

The choice is yours.

I think you desperately underestimate how misanthropic the general public are. You seem to think everyone holds socialist values at heart. They don't. It's nothing to do with political allegiance, it's human nature. No-one cares about fairness, they care about the best deal for themselves and their dependents.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think you desperately underestimate how misanthropic the general public are. You seem to think everyone holds socialist values at heart. They don't. It's nothing to do with political allegiance, it's human nature. No-one cares about fairness, they care about the best deal for themselves and their dependents.

I think it's an enormous leap to equate socialism as the route to fairness. History suggests that couldn't be further from the truth. Indeed, history suggests that things are generally fairer when power is dissipated, not concentrated.

 

[The Cowboy]

I think it's an enormous leap to equate socialism as the route to fairness. History suggests that couldn't be further from the truth. Indeed, history suggests that things are generally fairer when power is dissipated, not concentrated.

Fine, take the word socialism out, you get my point.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Fine, take the word socialism out, you get my point.

Of course, and whisper it quietly, but that was the gist of Thatcher's "no such thing as society" speech, that in reality, society is a bottom up construct, the sum of all of our interactions, not a top down diktat by officials.

 

[PhilM]

They need to take her off media commitments until the election. She's in an incredibly safe seat, she doesn't need to do this for her own promotion, and all she is doing is damaging the party.

Personally, the fact that Corbyn and co. are still willing to support her regardless of her clear failings highlight the plight of the party.

Yes it's so close to the election so moving her on would be in itself a huge sign of weakness, but they could at least hide her from the limelight.

Unfortunately for them, the pot of Corbyn loyalists is so thin and the divisions in the party so significant that they've got to stick with the imbecile.

 

[Eggs]

Personally, the fact that Corbyn and co. are still willing to support her regardless of her clear failings highlight the plight of the party.

Yes it's so close to the election so moving her on would be in itself a huge sign of weakness, but they could at least hide her from the limelight.

Unfortunately for them, the pot of Corbyn loyalists is so thin and the divisions in the party so significant that they've got to stick with the imbecile.

...apparently Corbyn and Abbot were an item back in the day, not sure if that's anything to do with his support of her.

I notice that after his success yesterday Andy Burnham refused to share a photograph with Corbyn, apparently Burnham blames him for so many Labour councillors losing their jobs.

 

[peteblue]

I'm not rubbing my hands with glee. I've watched Labour steadily become a laughing stock over the last couple of years.

Losing Scotland to the SNP and seeing UKIP make huge inroads in traditional working class Labour heartlands during the 2015 GE should have been the wakeup call but for some reason the Labour party didn't listen. All we hear is constant complaints that the media is Tory-controlled, and a fingers-in-the-ears attitude to counter-arguments pointing out that the BBC is openly pro-Labour. Labour politics appear to now exist in an echo chamber, a safe space where no criticism is even acknowledged. What sensible party would ever put forward Diane Abbott as a candidate for anything, let alone allow her to hold a senior position and wheel her out to speak to the nation time after time? Who does the modern Labour party represent? All the election results since 2015 suggest that the working class, in large numbers, does not feel it represents them.

Parliamentary democracy such as ours needs a functioning, effective opposition. it is a vital part of the machinery. Currently, this cog is missing from Westminster and that's not good for anyone. Consider who I vote for, alongside what I've written here.

I think this sums it up. We all want a strong viable alternative to the current government, but labour have totally lost touch with its people. Diane Abbott on her own is the single best reason to vote for any other party....

 

[PhilM]

I notice that after his success yesterday Andy Burnham refused to share a photograph with Corbyn, apparently Burnham blames him for so many Labour councillors losing their jobs.

I'd also be inclined to believe that Burnham's vision of Labour is not the direction in which Corbyn and his associates would like to take the party.

The whole 'prior arrangements' excuse was nothing more than a thinly veiled snub of Corbyn's management of the party. Embarrassing really.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

I think you desperately underestimate how misanthropic the general public are. You seem to think everyone holds socialist values at heart. They don't. It's nothing to do with political allegiance, it's human nature. No-one cares about fairness, they care about the best deal for themselves and their dependents.

That's fundamentally untrue in my experience. Sure it can apply to some people, but many others work selflessly, sometimes at great sacrifice, for people they may have never met or have no social ties to.
Is selfishness human nature? It's a complex narrative and one that I'm not entirely comfortable with to be honest.

 

[Number_25]

I think you desperately underestimate how misanthropic the general public are. You seem to think everyone holds socialist values at heart. They don't. It's nothing to do with political allegiance, it's human nature. No-one cares about fairness, they care about the best deal for themselves and their dependents.

Thank you for being candid with your response, but I can't help but think you're badly misconstrued.

I could point at the mix-market model of post-war Britain, which saw social mobility and equitable wealth amongst the poor sky-rocket - but I trust that you're already aware of it.

The "deal" offered by this current Labour Party to empower everyone, surely that's the "best deal" for everyone overall?

 

[Gouldy]

That's fundamentally untrue in my experience. Sure it can apply to some people, but many others work selflessly, sometimes at great sacrifice, for people they may have never met or have no social ties to.
Is selfishness human nature? It's a complex narrative and one that I'm not entirely comfortable with to be honest.

I think humans at this moment, are generally selfish. However, this isn't to say it's human nature to be selfish period. I think its the society that we all grow up in; mainly the economic structure of capitalism has helped ingrain selfishness into our nature (see survival of the fittest). But nature is malleable depending upon external factors, and as such the system that we grow up in at present does nothing but exacerbate traits of selfishness.

 

[The Cowboy]

Thank you for being candid with your response, but I can't help but think you're badly misconstrued.

I could point at the mix-market model of post-war Britain, which saw social mobility and equitable wealth amongst the poor sky-rocket - but I trust that you're already aware of it.

The "deal" offered by this current Labour Party to empower everyone, surely that's the "best deal" for everyone overall?

It's not the best deal for me, I can assure you.

 

[balggy]

Thank you for being candid with your response, but I can't help but think you're badly misconstrued.

I could point at the mix-market model of post-war Britain, which saw social mobility and equitable wealth amongst the poor sky-rocket - but I trust that you're already aware of it.

The "deal" offered by this current Labour Party to empower everyone, surely that's the "best deal" for everyone overall?

I don't think he is "badly misconstrued".

The biggest problem I see with labour is welfare/ benefits. It's two words that people are put off discussing. During the 2015 leadership election I visited my local labour club because Andy Burnham was talking. if I would have made a comment on welfare/ benefits that was off message from the the "Ken Loach view", I would have been derided. I said nothing.

So people don't discuss it, not openly, maybe privately and instead decide they can't back corbyn. When people ask what is there not to like about Corbyn's policies? Saying too generous on welfare would get you massively shouted down.

When people think that some, and I know quite a few, are abusing the system, saying "look at the rich, they should pay more tax" doesn't really cut it.

Dad is 70 retired last year, he worked for a housing association as a surveyor. Was telling me yesterday that one lunch time he had parked up to eat his sandwiches beside a canal. Couple of unemployed blokes in there 50s come walking past, had been fishing and start laughing at my dad and his mate, saying "What are you walking for? Look at us, we've got it right."

 

[Number_25]

It's not the best deal for me, I can assure you.

May I ask why? If you'd rather take this conversation to the private message if you're worried that people may accost you, feel free to message me instead of replying here.

 

[Tree13]

Thank you for being candid with your response, but I can't help but think you're badly misconstrued.

I could point at the mix-market model of post-war Britain, which saw social mobility and equitable wealth amongst the poor sky-rocket - but I trust that you're already aware of it.

The "deal" offered by this current Labour Party to empower everyone, surely that's the "best deal" for everyone overall?

This is a really interesting point. There obviously must be people out there for whom the "deal' offered by Labour is the best option. The proof of this is that the Labour party still attracts voters in their thousands in many places. However, the "deal" on offer is not attractive to me, nor to my family, nor to anyone I know - the message I hear when the deal is put across is "Hey, you greedy racist - pay for everyone else who doesn't make the same sacrifices you do." The strongest irony being that a racist champagne socialist like Diane Abbott is usually the one hectoring me via the tv, trying to convince me that I should vote for a party that would have her as a senior figure. (The amount of air time Abbott gets is insane BTW - the BBC absolutely love her for some reason.)

Perhaps it's something to do with the part of the country in which I live, but of the people I know, the only ones who profess to be Labour supporters are in the 25-35 age bracket, have fairly well-paid jobs but don't own their own homes. No-one who fits the traditional stereotype of a Labour supporter - they seem to mostly favour UKIP.

Your point re post-war Labour serves an interesting purpose, but I don't think it's the one you intended. It simply reinforces the fact that the current Labour party seems pretty out of touch with its traditional voters. As I said above, apart from hipster students and recent graduates going through a social justice warrior stage, I simply don't see who Labour are representing. All of this is a real shame because there are some individual Labour policies which I like (according to that website thing that asks you dozens of questions re politics and then analyses your responses) and I can see that Corbyn is a decent man. The issue is that much of what he / Abbott / the labour party says is so extreme and divisive from my viewpoint that I would not consider voting for them. I suspect that this may be a similar problem for millions of people up and down the country.

I'm not going to gloat over the local election results. Even though I vote Tory, I want to see a strong opposition - we currently have nothing of the sort.

EDIT: I suppose this is all immaterial actually. The reasons why a Tory wouldn't consider voting for Corbyn and Abbott are so easily guessed that discussing them doesn't really matter. The real issue for the current Labour party at this precise moment in time is "why aren't Labour voters voting Labour anymore?"