Current Affairs The Labour Party

[dannyboy]

It's because most people just want evolution. Momentum and its' supporters want revolution.

Most people don't consider themselves proletariat/serfs. Hence why Labour had no chance of ever winning an election under Corbyn - because the working class are aspirational and felt insulted by the lefts view of them. The politically active 'grassroots' of Labour are a combination of the 'Islington' mindset and the Marxist one; both of which have no broad appeal in the UK.

It's not that you're 'young' - it's that you are completely at odds with what people actually want from life, so they fire back at you. Momentum deserve the ire they got. It never ceases to amaze me how the left don't understand the working class now.

I accept there's a disconnect between Labour and towns like Hartlepool. Less to do with policies and more to do with perception and messaging. If you live in these places and your only experience of Momentum is what you see written up in the Daily Mail then the chances are you're not going to be too enamoured by what they're offering.

You say that Corbyn's Labour could never win but I'll always maintain the policies can. For example, if an Obama figure fronts the 2017 campaign with a message of hope after 7 years of austerity then I think you'd have been looking at Britain's first socialist government in a long time.

 

[dannyboy]

It was really grim how so many within Labour helped the establishment out too because they felt threatened rather than energised.

The PLP was and still is a complete travesty. These people can't even relate to their own party members, let alone the country.

Always important to remember they brought Corbynism on themselves by sitting back as the Tories rolled through another round of welfare cuts. People were just fed up of being told the only way to be the Tories was to be like the Tories.

 

[roydo]

I accept there's a disconnect between Labour and towns like Hartlepool. Less to do with policies and more to do with perception and messaging. If you live in these places and your only experience of Momentum is what you see written up in the Daily Mail then the chances are you're not going to be too enamoured by what they're offering.

You say that Corbyn's Labour could never win but I'll always maintain the policies can. For example, if an Obama figure fronts the 2017 campaign with a message of hope after 7 years of austerity then I think you'd have been looking at Britain's first socialist government in a long time.

I think finding an Obama type figure is a bit of a stretch looking at the current crop of UK MP's.

 

[Tubey]

I accept there's a disconnect between Labour and towns like Hartlepool. Less to do with policies and more to do with perception and messaging. If you live in these places and your only experience of Momentum is what you see written up in the Daily Mail then the chances are you're not going to be too enamoured by what they're offering.

You say that Corbyn's Labour could never win but I'll always maintain the policies can. For example, if an Obama figure fronts the 2017 campaign with a message of hope after 7 years of austerity then I think you'd have been looking at Britain's first socialist government in a long time.

You've just described Blair. For that to happen, Obama would still have to be Obama.

The problem with Corbyn is everyone and their dog knew his real agenda. Far left socialism. If he got in, his manifesto was basically a worthless bit of paper.

Blaming the media for shaping the narrative is overly simplistic. Newspapers exist to sell themselves, they are profit making businesses. Therefore, the demand has to be there to justify the supply. Hence newspapers switching to New Labour, as that's the way the wind blew, so they met that demand.

The fact is the UK is by no means a socialist country. Its not even close. When you describe popular socialist policies, they're popular only if it doesn't harm people's self interests. The moment you tell people funding these things will mean massive personal tax increases and their employers losing money, risking their jobs, then they aren't popular anymore.

 

[dannyboy]

I think finding an Obama type figure is a bit of a stretch looking at the current crop of UK MP's.

Haha absolutely true of the current Labour Party but having a likeable leader would make the world of difference. Just look at these figures for Starmer. No idea how he bounces back from this.

 

[roydo]

Haha absolutely true of the current Labour Party but having a likeable leader would make the world of difference. Just look at these figures for Starmer. No idea how he bounces back from this. View attachment 126866

Blimey.

Thing is, Brits aint daft. They can do daft things, but they can sense a phoney a mile off.

 

[dannyboy]

You've just described Blair. For that to happen, Obama would still have to be Obama.

The problem with Corbyn is everyone and their dog knew his real agenda. Far left socialism. If he got in, his manifesto was basically a worthless bit of paper.

Blaming the media for shaping the narrative is overly simplistic. Newspapers exist to sell themselves, they are profit making businesses. Therefore, the demand has to be there to justify the supply. Hence newspapers switching to New Labour, as that's the way the wind blew, so they met that demand.

The fact is the UK is by no means a socialist country. Its not even close. When you describe popular socialist policies, they're popular only if it doesn't harm people's self interests. The moment you tell people funding these things will mean massive personal tax increases and their employers losing money, risking their jobs, then they aren't popular anymore.

I think under 40s are more receptive to socialist policies than any other generation in a long time so it isn't set in stone that Britain will never swing left. Always remember Thatcher won big among the youth so that in itself is a change.

Pragmatism is fine but you don't abandon your ideals because you think it'll be a hard sell. I'd imagine the Labour government of 1945 was dismissed as crack pot communists when they campaigned to implement universal health care. They still won that arguement.

 

[Tubey]

I think under 40s are more receptive to socialist policies than any other generation in a long time so it isn't set in stone that Britain will never swing left. Always remember Thatcher won big among the youth so that in itself is a change.

Pragmatism is fine but you don't abandon your ideals because you think it'll be a hard sell. I'd imagine the Labour government on 1945 was dismissed as crack pot communists when they campaigned to implement universal health care. They still won that arguement.

They weren't, it was common consensus after WW2 that a contract with the people needed to be made in terms of health care. It's why Churchill was booted out, because we no longer needed the wartime leader.

A very unique scenario.

Also, the young now are just the same as the young ten, twenty years ago. The "flower power" generation of the 60s/70s are all now around 80 years old and overwhelmingly vote Tory. What you see is simply a bigger platform through social media so the loudest voices are heard more - they're still a minority though. The young still don't vote to anywhere near the same degree as other age groups.

 

[orchard]

Blimey.

Thing is, Brits aint daft. They can do daft things, but they can sense a phoney a mile off.

 

[roydo]

View attachment 126868

Well, that does show the exception to the rule, granted.

But that said, Farage did connect with actual fears/issues/whatever for enough people to be exercised. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Brexit, that is undeniable.

I said it a few days ago, to dogs abuse; if the Labour Party dont understand why tons of folk like, or at least warm to Johnson, they really should consider who they are listening to.

 

[orchard]

Well, that does show the exception to the rule, granted.

But that said, Farage did connect with actual fears/issues/whatever for enough people to be exercised. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Brexit, that is undeniable.

I said it a few days ago, to dogs abuse; if the Labour Party dont understand why tons of folk like, or at least warm to Johnson, they really should consider who they are listening to.

Did he, or more importantly, his sponsors, connect with specific fears/issues/whatever or create/channel/direct them?

 

[roydo]

Did he, or more importantly, his sponsors, connect with specific fears/issues/whatever or create/channel/direct them?

Farage or Johnson?

If its the former, it was Brexit.

If its the latter, it was Brexit.

Rightly or wrongly. But they both did.

 

[dannyboy]

They weren't, it was common consensus after WW2 that a contract with the people needed to be made in terms of health care. It's why Churchill was booted out, because we no longer needed the wartime leader.

A very unique scenario.

Also, the young now are just the same as the young ten, twenty years ago. The "flower power" generation of the 60s/70s are all now around 80 years old and overwhelmingly vote Tory. What you see is simply a bigger platform through social media so the loudest voices are heard more - they're still a minority though. The young still don't vote to anywhere near the same degree as other age groups.

There was never a guarantee it would be a common consensus. Labour politicians at the time just made convincing arguments that persuaded the population to believe that. Even Corbyn managed to change the narrative on austerity over the last few years. If the Labour had ran on the manifesto the Tories did in 2019 they'd have been described as far left.

And don't get me wrong, I completely understand your point of view on all this. I just think things can be a lot better than they currently are and I don't think sitting on the fence in an age of populism will help achieve any sort of meaningful change.

 

[mahermi1]

Well, that does show the exception to the rule, granted.

But that said, Farage did connect with actual fears/issues/whatever for enough people to be exercised. Whatever the rights and wrongs of Brexit, that is undeniable.

I said it a few days ago, to dogs abuse; if the Labour Party dont understand why tons of folk like, or at least warm to Johnson, they really should consider who they are listening to.

Johnson i reluctantly admit has a bit of charisma, thick as pig crap, while Starmer is almost invisible to the public. No doubt though the Tories have enjoyed a massive Covid vaccination bounce with their vote.
Starmer and Labour as a whole just have to up their game.

 

[Tubey]

There was never a guarantee it would be a common consensus. Labour politicians at the time just made convincing arguments that persuaded the population to believe that. Even Corbyn managed to change the narrative on austerity over the last few years. If the Labour had ran on the manifesto the Tories did in 2019 they'd have been described as far left.

And don't get me wrong, I completely understand your point of view on all this. I just think things can be a lot better than they currently are and I don't think sitting on the fence in an age of populism will help achieve any sort of meaningful change.

Joe Biden just sat on the fence and obliterated Trump. Its a myth you have to choose a side - you just have to have a vision to improve the lives of those with the least without harming the lives of those with more.

The left never achieve that here. Indeed the only time they did under Blair they labelled it Red Toryism.

You say nothing can be achieved through pragmatism; I say less can be achieved through dogmatic left wing ideology.