Current Affairs The Labour Party

[davek]

I see; no wonder you back him so strongly.

I have no idea what that means.

 

[davek]

If only I'd known this in the 80s and early 90s I wouldn't have wasted countless hours trudging through rain-soaked streets campaigning for Labour!

Well, you saw what happens when a LP leader doesn't play the game (and that even goes for Miliband),

 

[davek]

Starmer on the issue of the EU deal.



The architect of Labour's anti-Brexit strategy. The man of principle.

 

[Wizard]

Starmer on the issue of the EU deal.

View attachment 109910

The architect of Labour's anti-Brexit strategy. The man of principle.

But there isn't any "anti-brexit" option anymore. There is at best going to be a vote between deal or no deal. What do you want him to say?

 

[JimmyJeffers]

But there isn't any "anti-brexit" option anymore. There is at best going to be a vote between deal or no deal. What do you want him to say?

Yeah agreed. He was prominent anti brexit but his hands are tied here. Also time constraints leave him little option.

 

[davek]

But there isn't any "anti-brexit" option anymore. There is at best going to be a vote between deal or no deal. What do you want him to say?

No deal.

Not voting for Brexit, and not his usual cowards way out of dealing with matters - the abstention. Vote it down and tell the country that the party remains consistent and that they oppose leaving the EU as a national disaster. The Tory rebellion wont be big enough to collapse the deal so there'd be no chance of going over the cliff.

This is all down to credibility: does Starmer have the consistency to argue to the end his view of remaining in the EU and thereby project himself as a 'man of principle', or does he fail to take that route and look like an oportunist who has no set values?

 

[Wizard]

No deal.

Not voting for Brexit, and not his usual cowards way out of dealing with matters - the abstention. Vote it down and tell the country that the party remains consistent and that they oppose leaving the EU as a national disaster. The Tory rebellion wont be big enough to collapse the deal so there'd be no chance of going over the cliff.

This is all down to credibility: does Starmer have the consistency to argue to the end his view of remaining in the EU and thereby project himself as a 'man of principle', or does he fail to take that route and look like an oportunist who has no set values?

So you want him to show his support for the EU by rejecting the deal the EU have negotiated with us? You want him to send the message to his voters that are relying on some form of deal that he doesn't support it? It would be absolute suicide.

As he has said in his responses you posted they will look at the deal before deciding what to do but in almost any situation a deal is better than no deal.

Remaining in the EU is not an option anymore and posturing by voting down the deal would be a terrible move. Can you imagine if Labour voted against and somehow the deal got defeated in parliament? The next however many years of pain would be blamed on Labour and Starmer by the Tories.

 

[davek]

So you want him to show his support for the EU by rejecting the deal the EU have negotiated with us? You want him to send the message to his voters that are relying on some form of deal that he doesn't support it? It would be absolute suicide.

As he has said in his responses you posted they will look at the deal before deciding what to do but in almost any situation a deal is better than no deal.

Remaining in the EU is not an option anymore and posturing by voting down the deal would be a terrible move. Can you imagine if Labour voted against and somehow the deal got defeated in parliament? The next however many years of pain would be blamed on Labour and Starmer by the Tories.

What will be suicide is him turning volte face on his original Brexit position.

Voting a bad deal down will be reasonable and consistent. It;s what a number of his fellow remainer shadow cabinet are telling him to do for the reasons I outlined...and there'll be resignations from them if he doesn't.

 

[Wizard]

What will be suicide is him turning volte face on his original Brexit position.

Voting a bad deal down will be reasonable and consistent. It;s what a number of his fellow remainer shadow cabinet are telling him to do for the reasons I outlined...and there'll be resignations from them if he doesn't.

There are only 2 options available and you are advocating for him to take the one which could potentially screw the country. In a fantasy land where voting down "a bad deal" could potentially lead to us not leaving the EU then I'd agree with you. Sadly that's not where we are.

Remain has gone, it's over. People need to work out how to make the best of a truly terrible situation now, not keep harping on about what we should have done. Of the two options available now the best option is supporting the deal to stop no-deal Brexit and I'm pretty sure you know it.

 

[roydo]

What will be suicide is him turning volte face on his original Brexit position.

Voting a bad deal down will be reasonable and consistent. It;s what a number of his fellow remainer shadow cabinet are telling him to do for the reasons I outlined...and there'll be resignations from them if he doesn't.

You said, in the covid thread, that when the facts change, you can change. I agree.

But his wish to remain in the EU is like me wishing to get a new house for Christmas. Just imagine if Labour abstain, or vote against some deal, and as a result, the whole thing goes south and we all end up with No Deal cos there are enough swivel eyed loons in the Tory party?

 

[davek]

There are only 2 options available and you are advocating for him to take the one which could potentially screw the country. In a fantasy land where voting down "a bad deal" could potentially lead to us not leaving the EU then I'd agree with you. Sadly that's not where we are.

Remain has gone, it's over. People need to work out how to make the best of a truly terrible situation now, not keep harping on about what we should have done. Of the two options available now the best option is supporting the deal to stop no-deal Brexit and I'm pretty sure you know it.

Support the bad deal and be shackled to it with the Tories; abstain on it and underline that your party and you have once again abandoned the role as the official opposition.

 

[davek]

You said, in the covid thread, that when the facts change, you can change. I agree.

But his wish to remain in the EU is like me wishing to get a new house for Christmas. Just imagine if Labour abstain, or vote against some deal, and as a result, the whole thing goes south and we all end up with No Deal cos there are enough swivel eyed loons in the Tory party?

If there's no deal then it's because it's a rubbish deal. Not hard to understand.

Back it and Labour will go down with the Brexit ship - strapped to its flagpole with the Tories.

 

[roydo]

If there's no deal then it's because it's a rubbish deal. Not hard to understand.

Back it and Labour will go down with the Brexit ship - strapped to its flagpole with the Tories.

So if a deal agreed between UK and EU is "good", Labour should support it?

Or they oppose/abstain whatever the deal is, and we might end up with no deal?

 

[davek]

So if a deal agreed between UK and EU is "good", Labour should support it?

Or they oppose/abstain whatever the deal is, and we might end up with no deal?

It wont be. It cant be. Any deal struck will result in a massive disaster. This is the difference between being stabbed to death or shot to death.

The LP have to oppose any deal and then set out a vision of re-engaging with Europe economically and diplomatically.

 

[Paris]

Meanwhile, back in the real world (a lemon free zone) the Labour Party is starting to poll ahead of the Tories in 36 of the 45 'Red Wall' seats that Corbyn's Labour lost last year.