Current Affairs The Labour Party

[catcherintherye]

Couldn't agree with you more. One of the main problems is being 'working class' becomes less relevant every year - we're on the steady (if sluggish) march to a lower-middle-class society, and, eventually, class will become largely irrelevant. Labour need to understand that and adapt.

I agree with a lot of that, though I might put different labels on it.

Labour's big strength is it's big weakness. Long term it has a huge lead built up of younger people. The issue is we are unreliable voters.

They lost a relatively small chunk of highly strategically placed voters in 2019. The issue as you say, is that certain sections are greatly shrinking.

This action from Starmer though, which could really hit younger voters could be very damaging.

 

[Eggs]

What went on that you think was so bad Eggs? I'm not trying to dig you out, but would be interested in hearing about the difficulties.

...I think that type of politics is too partisan. No reasoning, no cordiality. You look at somebody like Burnham who is passionate about his politics but decent and rounded in his analysis and communication.

That partisan politics is evident on here, it puts many voters off. I saw it in 40 years as a TU member, many shop stewards too partisan and beyond reason. They mostly talked the same talk.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

A lot of these people despise Labour. They hate Blair and Brown as much as they hate Corbyn. I think part of the problem is when they look at the opposition benches they don´t see people like themselves. Unfortunately, a lot see they have more in common with Farage.

I've always voted Labour but haven't voted in the last two elections.

Champagne socialists like Miliband and far left radicals like Cobyn dont speak for me any more than Eton Posh Boys Cameron or Johnson do.

Thats the problem - Labour haven't had a proper working class leader in many years.

The likes of Starmer and Blair are alright like but I wouldn't support them if there was a more credible leader who spoke for the average joe on the street.

 

[Mrk]

I agree with a lot of that, though I might put different labels on it.

Labour's big strength is it's big weakness. Long term it has a huge lead built up of younger people. The issue is we are unreliable voters.

They lost a relatively small chunk of highly strategically placed voters in 2019. The issue as you say, is that certain sections are greatly shrinking.

This action from Starmer though, which could really hit younger voters could be very damaging.

You're right. It's worth keeping on mind that young voters get more conservative as they get older (the more you have, the more you want to conserve - naturally!).

But I really don't think it's all doom and gloom for Labour - I'm staunchly independent and if I had the choice between Keir and Boris I'd vote Keir 100 times out of 100 - so they've gained at least 1 floating voter.

 

[catcherintherye]

...I think that type of politics is too partisan. No reasoning, no cordiality. You look at somebody like Burnham who is passionate about his politics but decent and rounded in his analysis and communication.

That partisan politics is evident on here, it puts many voters off. I saw it in 40 years as a TU member, many shop stewards too partisan and beyond reason. They mostly talked the same talk.

Fair points. I really like Burnham and said he would be a great leader recently. Interesting that when the leaks about ho they tried to sabotge the 2017 election campaign came out, Burnham essentially acknowledged it was the case and said he had faced similar when he tried to run for leader (as he was deemed too radical). I think being a working class guy from the North West who talks about regional inequality means he does not fit in with those at Labour HQ.

I'll be honest, I didn't really saw Corbyn as a trade union type guy. There was part of me that wished he was a bit more like a Trade union guy (for all it's faults) at least things tended to get done. It always seemed a bit too chaotic for me. The 2019 manifesto was too chaotic though. Too many people annointed themselves as the key genius of 2017 and we got left with a hodge podge of ideas.

 

[Charro]

I've always voted Labour but haven't voted in the last two elections.

Champagne socialists like Miliband and far left radicals like Cobyn dont speak for me any more than Eton Posh Boys Cameron or Johnson do.

Thats the problem - Labour haven't had a proper working class leader in many years.

The likes of Starmer and Blair are alright like but I wouldn't support them if there was a more credible leader who spoke for the average joe on the street.

Who would you have as a labour leader?

 

[catcherintherye]

You're right. It's worth keeping on mind that young voters get more conservative as they get older (the more you have, the more you want to conserve - naturally!).

But I really don't think it's all doom and gloom for Labour - I'm staunchly independent and if I had the choice between Keir and Boris I'd vote Keir 100 times out of 100 - so they've gained at least 1 floating voter.

Whats interesting is the above process you mention actually doesn't happen anywhere near as much as people think. There's like a 5% drift if that. People often forget Thatcher won the youth vote in 83 and 87 I believe, and those people just get older now. Labour voters tend to die younger too and with New Labour just stopped voting at all. So it looks a bigger trend than it is.

Parties that are getting circa 10% of voters under 35 don't tend to govern in the long term very often. The old Social democratic parties in Europe had this problem around 25 years ago (again showing people don't always get more right as they get older) and then all of a sudden they went off a cliff.

In the long term, a split is probably the best thing to happen to Labour. I've felt it for a long time, but they would probably have to sacrifice an election or 2.

 

[Mrk]

Whats interesting is the above process you mention actually doesn't happen anywhere near as much as people think. There's like a 5% drift if that. People often forget Thatcher won the youth vote in 83 and 87 I believe, and those people just get older now. Labour voters tend to die younger too and with New Labour just stopped voting at all. So it looks a bigger trend than it is.

Parties that are getting circa 10% of voters under 35 don't tend to govern in the long term very often. The old Social democratic parties in Europe had this problem around 25 years ago (again showing people don't always get more right as they get older) and then all of a sudden they went off a cliff.

In the long term, a split is probably the best thing to happen to Labour. I've felt it for a long time, but they would probably have to sacrifice an election or 2.

You're absolutely right - there's a lot more nuance to it than simply age - I think a fair amount has to do with idealism which I am sure many people can attest fades with age.

I think a split for Labour and the Tories too would be amazing. I detest 2 party politics.

 

[dannyboy]

Fair points. I really like Burnham and said he would be a great leader recently. Interesting that when the leaks about ho they tried to sabotge the 2017 election campaign came out, Burnham essentially acknowledged it was the case and said he had faced similar when he tried to run for leader (as he was deemed too radical). I think being a working class guy from the North West who talks about regional inequality means he does not fit in with those at Labour HQ.

I'll be honest, I didn't really saw Corbyn as a trade union type guy. There was part of me that wished he was a bit more like a Trade union guy (for all it's faults) at least things tended to get done. It always seemed a bit too chaotic for me. The 2019 manifesto was too chaotic though. Too many people annointed themselves as the key genius of 2017 and we got left with a hodge podge of ideas.

Fantastic ideas but as you say chaotic. In an election, you need clear messaging. It seemed Labour had a big policy announcement on a daily basis.

Part of the reason why I think Labour won 40% of the vote in 2017 was because of how clearly defined their anti austerity campaign was. This time around the Tories were also supporting increases in spending and on the biggest issue of all they had it spot on. People wanted Brexit done and dusted, not whatever nonsense Labour was offering. Listening to the likes of Starmer and Adonis cost Labour as much as Corbyn´s lack of popularity.

 

[tim cahill]

I think Starmer is a shoe in for the general election mate - the way Johnson has handled the pandemic and the track and trace debacle Starmer could moonie the cameras and play his arse cheeks like a bongo and still win.

Which is why I think he's using this time to do a bit of a spring clean in the party so to speak - he's untouchable at the moment.

He's level in the polls and has just stuck 2 fingers up to a big chunk of Labour voters. I'd be very surprised if he wins the next election.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

I've always voted Labour but haven't voted in the last two elections.

Champagne socialists like Miliband and far left radicals like Cobyn dont speak for me any more than Eton Posh Boys Cameron or Johnson do.

Thats the problem - Labour haven't had a proper working class leader in many years.

The likes of Starmer and Blair are alright like but I wouldn't support them if there was a more credible leader who spoke for the average joe on the street.

Are you not fairly young? There’s only been 3 elections since 2010

 

[dannyboy]

Whats interesting is the above process you mention actually doesn't happen anywhere near as much as people think. There's like a 5% drift if that. People often forget Thatcher won the youth vote in 83 and 87 I believe, and those people just get older now. Labour voters tend to die younger too and with New Labour just stopped voting at all. So it looks a bigger trend than it is.

Parties that are getting circa 10% of voters under 35 don't tend to govern in the long term very often. The old Social democratic parties in Europe had this problem around 25 years ago (again showing people don't always get more right as they get older) and then all of a sudden they went off a cliff.

In the long term, a split is probably the best thing to happen to Labour. I've felt it for a long time, but they would probably have to sacrifice an election or 2.

I think a split would be catastrophic in terms of being able to win elections unless of course first past the post was replaced. If the Labour Party did go its separate ways, serious questions would have to be asked of UK democracy and whether opposition parties stood a real chance of ever defeating the Tories.

 

[Khalekan]

LOL

Writing has been on the wall since he was elected leader with his appointments.

Makes me sick that I was conned into backing him.

Over time I came to despise Kinnock and Blair.

But that process took a period of years.

I have hated Starmer since the getgo and nowt he has done during his six months in charge has dented that hatred.

 

[roydo]

Fantastic ideas but as you say chaotic. In an election, you need clear messaging. It seemed Labour had a big policy announcement on a daily basis.

Part of the reason why I think Labour won 40% of the vote in 2017 was because of how clearly defined their anti austerity campaign was. This time around the Tories were also supporting increases in spending and on the biggest issue of all they had it spot on. People wanted Brexit done and dusted, not whatever nonsense Labour was offering. Listening to the likes of Starmer and Adonis cost Labour as much as Corbyn´s lack of popularity.

I think that is true.

Folk were fed up to the back teeth with the constipated HOC we had. The Brexit argument was done, folk on both sides just wanted it done, even if, like me, they didnt want to leave. Johnson was the only one who said he would. Had my doubts, still do, but the other choices were more of the same.

 

[catcherintherye]

You're absolutely right - there's a lot more nuance to it than simply age - I think a fair amount has to do with idealism which I am sure many people can attest fades with age.

I think a split for Labour and the Tories too would be amazing. I detest 2 party politics.

I think there is material basis here which is essentially around housing. If you have 20 years being screwed over with rentals it's likely to forge a very strong anti-tory opinion that will stay with you for a long time, even if you end up making money as you get older (for which there are no guarentees).