Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Tubey]

Can you explain how I agree with one type of misinformation?

You’re falling into the same trap as the other fella.

Portraying us all to be a certain type of person, bias towards one thing but not the other. If you read my posts you’ll see I’m not showing bias towards anything, other than wanting people to learn about the phrases they’re constantly throwing out when challenged.

Right, so you're saying one type of disinformation is "worse" than the other, and give right wing disinformation as an example.

The reason you see it as worse is because you can't separate the cause and effect of left wing disinformation because it isn't as inherently offensive to you on a surface level, as you have a left wing bias of your own.

It's not that you absolutely agree with left wing disinformation and extremism, but it's that you have a tendency to not find it as objectionable, so you don't see the relative harm. "Defund the police", "Churchill was a racist, pull down his statues", "the IHRC definition of anti-semitism is wrong" etc. etc. aren't as bad as the right wing to you, whereas to me I see the cause and effect and see it as every bit as harmful as "immigrants are swamping the country" and so on.

In short, either all misinformation and extremism is bad or you have a bias towards one over the other.

 

[Tubey]

I enjoy reading his stuff to be fair, but he’s desperate to turn this into something it isn’t and go on another one of his far left rants.

You know what's odd? About a decade ago, I would have been classed as far left myself. I am a socialist; I'm just not a stark raving mad one.

My annoyance with the "far left" now is basically because they constantly undertake acts of political self-harm and put themselves at every disadvantage in terms of gaining power and actually making a difference.

So, strangely, I attack the far left because I see them as the best mates of the extreme right in the Tory party, because they do a better job in furthering the aims of Rees-Mogg and his gang than they ever could themselves.

So when you say "far left rants" - it's actually a rant at those furthering the aims of the far right.

 

[Charro]

Right, so you're saying one type of disinformation is "worse" than the other, and give right wing disinformation as an example.

The reason you see it as worse is because you can't separate the cause and effect of left wing disinformation because it isn't as inherently offensive to you on a surface level, as you have a left wing bias of your own.

It's not that you absolutely agree with left wing disinformation and extremism, but it's that you have a tendency to not find it as objectionable, so you don't see the relative harm. "Defund the police", "Churchill was a racist, pull down his statues", "the IHRC definition of anti-semitism is wrong" etc. etc. aren't as bad as the right wing to you, whereas to me I see the cause and effect and see it as every bit as harmful as "immigrants are swamping the country" and so on.

In short, either all misinformation and extremism is bad or you have a bias towards one over the other.

Oh I see the harm in something like defund the police. It’s something I 100% do not agree with.

All misinformation is bad, but one really is as bad as the other. We’re not just talking about misinformation with the right. We’re talking about a system that has hacked into people’s lives a manipulated them into thinking voting for trump and Brexit would be a good idea. It’s why I ask some people on here where they’re getting their information from as I can spot some very dangerous patterns in the stuff they post.

The misinformation that comes from the extreme parts of the left are dangerous, but they’re not on the same level to the far right rhetoric.

I don’t see how you’re coming to the conclusion that I agree with one certain aspect of lies, other than wanting to turn this debate into something it isn’t.

I’m saying one is worse than the other though, but not saying one is fine and the other isn’t.

 

[Charro]

You know what's odd? About a decade ago, I would have been classed as far left myself. I am a socialist; I'm just not a stark raving mad one.

My annoyance with the "far left" now is basically because they constantly undertake acts of political self-harm and put themselves at every disadvantage in terms of gaining power and actually making a difference.

So, strangely, I attack the far left because I see them as the best mates of the extreme right in the Tory party, because they do a better job in furthering the aims of Rees-Mogg and his gang than they ever could themselves.

So when you say "far left rants" - it's actually a rant at those furthering the aims of the far right.

I agree with you to an extent here.

I wish when we see something ridiculous from the far left we all just ignore it. Instead, we all want our say and give it more publicity than it deserves. Something we are all guilty of.

Same thing happens with the far right. It’s why I block anyone that quote tweets people like farage and the other far right goons, giving their stuff traction just to get a few likes with there ‘witty’ remark.

Both the far left and the far right should always be on the fringes of politics and society, but we all fall into the trap of giving them the publicity they crave and it creates a culture war that gets people to turn against eachother.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Social media and the internet has fragmented political norms to the degree that traditional affiliations mean less than the new tribes that exist and to varying degrees are being manipulated by both the extremes of the right and left. The Overton Window is being stretched. Trump is president; the British people have voted to leave the EU; the red wall has turned blue; the Tories have funded the UK's biggest ever peace-time fiscal package.

Andrew Marantz’s book 'Antisocial' is an interesting account of how the Alt-right have used the internet to shape American politics

 

[coollino]

I think if you get to the stage where your whole political outlook is either left or right, and you are near incapable of seeing the opposition view with any credibility then you're too far gone ie. You're far left or right.

I understand there are exceptions to the rule - the BNP type racists who can be left on economics but they are quite rare.

Ultimately I know a lot of moderate left wing folk in life who whilst maybe leaning to social liberal ideas and economic socialism they also can see the negatives of both and also shock horror the positives of certain "right" beliefs / systems such as capitalism, tougher prison sentencing heck even God forbid the death penalty or curbs on immigration numbers.

But when the likes of dead soft - who speaks about the ills of capitalism, the white man being inherently evil and how anyone who believes in tougher sentencing is a Tommy Robinson fanboy claims he isnt far left just because he isnt a full on communist/hard line socialist is hilarious.

In reality there aren't many far left or right people in the UK, I'd say a few thousand on each side. The fringes of society.

A lot of further left or right do not use the normal channels of social media because of censorship. The far right tend to use Gab and the far left probably are still refusing to accept that paperback books are better than hard back and may not really trust the mainstream internet.

I'd suggest people on social media who share 'far' articles probably genuinely aren't or maybe haven't even read them.

I'd be surprised if you or I have every really met a 'far' person and I don't they even identify as such as it will be so normalised to them.

I do think it's dangerous to throw around 'far' 'facist' etc as it can take the meaning out of the word, and I feel you have started to do with with 'far left.

 

[Blues Harp]

Social media and the internet has fragmented political norms to the degree that traditional affiliations mean less than the new tribes that exist and to varying degrees are being manipulated by both the extremes of the right and left. The Overton Window is being stretched. Trump is president; the British people have voted to leave the EU; the red wall has turned blue; the Tories have funded the UK's biggest ever peace-time fiscal package.

Andrew Marantz’s book 'Antisocial' is an interesting account of how the Alt-right have used the internet to shape American politics

Interesting view that.....not read "Antisocial" but thanks for the heads up.
Would also reccomend "Alt America" by David Niewert, looking at the rise of the radical right under Trump....scary.

 

[Tubey]

Morons.

 

[Blues Harp]

Morons.

What would be your reaction if a section of the right wing tories acted in a similar way about Johnson's position as leader?

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Morons.

Is there anymore proof needed that the Labour Party currently isnt fit for purpose?

I mean half the party are far left and the other are centre left with views that cross over into centre right territory.

Someone bring the SDP party back.

 

[Tubey]

What would be your reaction if a section of the right wing tories acted in a similar way about Johnson's position as leader?

Depends on circumstances, but if you mean right now?

My reaction would be "morons". The guy has an 80 seat majority won this year and there's no realistic alternative to him. They'd be morons.

 

[ForeverBlue92]

In reality there aren't many far left or right people in the UK, I'd say a few thousand on each side. The fringes of society.

A lot of further left or right do not use the normal channels of social media because of censorship. The far right tend to use Gab and the far left probably are still refusing to accept that paperback books are better than hard back and may not really trust the mainstream internet.

I'd suggest people on social media who share 'far' articles probably genuinely aren't or maybe haven't even read them.

I'd be surprised if you or I have every really met a 'far' person and I don't they even identify as such as it will be so normalised to them.

I do think it's dangerous to throw around 'far' 'facist' etc as it can take the meaning out of the word, and I feel you have started to do with with 'far left.

I would say in general in the UK most only refer to those of the far left based on economics and those on the far right based on issues of nationalism/immigration yet for me its more far reaching than that - just different elements.

You never hear someone branded far right in the UK because they are anti NHS /welfare state and ultra capitalist likewise you tend not to see people who are very liberal minded branded far left only those who are economic socialists/communists.

 

[dead_soft]

I would say in general in the UK most only refer to those of the far left based on economics and those on the far right based on issues of nationalism/immigration yet for me its more far reaching than that - just different elements.

You never hear someone branded far right in the UK because they are anti NHS /welfare state and ultra capitalist likewise you tend not to see people who are very liberal minded branded far left only those who are economic socialists/communists.

Yet you repeatedly brand people far left when you don't know their economic politics? Or I have misunderstood your comment?

 

[dead_soft]

Morons.

Yep they are, but they are also a nothingness group with no direct affiliation, as a group, to the Labour Party I can see?

 

[ForeverBlue92]

Yet you repeatedly brand people far left when you don't know their economic politics? Or I have misunderstood your comment?

Whats a racist socialist?