Current Affairs The Labour Party

[catcherintherye]

I wouldn't like to comment on the effectiveness of management across the economy, I was merely reflecting on the notion that the NHS wastes money on too many managers, when it has roughly 1/3 the number of managers as the economy as a whole.

Yes fair point. Do you think we have too many managers in other sectors? 15% just feels a bit high for me.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes thats all true.

Taken in it's totality though, it's a far superior system, from a value for money perspective than the US privatised model, and compares well against most other systems.

It doesn't make it perfect, or immune to progress, specifically at a micro level. At a macros level though, it's performance remains solid.

I'm afraid I can't go along with the idea that unless Labour adopts to moving to a position akin to the American system (only really accessible to those in work) we are going to win back a group of disproportionately working class, older voters who may be retired or semi retired and unlikely to be covered by work place healthcare policies. If I was giving advice, that would be about the opposite thing to what I'd advise any Labour party to do.

It's one of the many frustrations I have with the healthcare debate in the UK, as the (god awful) American system is the only one proposed, when most countries in Europe have a different healthcare system to our own, with several countries allowing providers to span private and non-profit sectors. If I was a cynic I'd say it's easy to limit comparisons with the US because their system is so unbelievably dysfunctional.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes fair point. Do you think we have too many managers in other sectors? 15% just feels a bit high for me.

No idea mate. I do believe good managers make a difference, and stats seem to support that, but what the magic number is I wouldn't like to say.

 

[Billy Dean]

This is the thing though. We (rightly) point to the US as exactly where we don't want to go, but I'm fairly sure that it's actually illegal to run a healthcare company in the US if you're not a doctor, so this notion that doctors are saintly is a bit wide of the mark. After all, the doctors lobby opposed the creation of the NHS for a great many years, and were opposed to the kind of friendly societies that the NHS was modelled on. It was only once their 'mouths were stuffed with gold' that they acquiesced, and they sit proudly among the richest members of society ever since.

Regardless of whether they're saintly or not, that kind of thing doesn't happen on the NHS

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

You can not have profit involved in caring for people, fullstop, have you seen the health care system in the US, those who can't afford it die, those who can't afford it go without Meds they need, suffer.

Do you know how much a Asthma inhaler and a month's meds for it costs in the US?, $400 a month, and Trump wants us to pay more for the US meds we buy, he's stated we get stuff too cheap.

But but but Richard Branson needs another exotic island to live on, your just jealous...

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Regardless of whether they're saintly or not, that kind of thing doesn't happen on the NHS

Other bad things happen instead. It's a bit like saying footballers don't suffer from road rash.

 

[Joey66]

With clarity like that Joe, it's hard to fathom how any non-governmental supplier could have possibly done a better job. Maybe they could write in coherent sentences or something?

On winning the contract the Local authority sold plants in competition with the private sector while providing also plants for the Borough many still do utilising spare space under glass heating etc I took in 2/3rd of my overall budget also the outside parks took on private grass cutting and Landscape contracts - this of course is an impossibility of the NHS , but my point with good adventurous management from the Director down the whole Parks contracts changed for the better bigger budgets self generated income = job security which fed downwards to all staff - creating more temporary and full time staff......Quality knowledge and topgrade plants sell - the public see them on display as the advert to buy them.....
They then also see the operation of production, and value of council tax money well spent......

 

[Billy Dean]

Other bad things happen instead. It's a bit like saying footballers don't suffer from road rash.

It isn't in the least bit like that, but I see the point you're trying to make.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It isn't in the least bit like that, but I see the point you're trying to make.

It was a poor analogy, but when it's impossible for the NHS to profit, it's not really fair to say that NHS docs aren't swayed by the temptation to profit out of their work. The NHS is cool in a great many ways. In other ways, it's not, and in many of those, the challenges are consistent across health systems (and healthcare models). Reckon it'd be best served if the politicians butted out and it was truly independent.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

It isn't in the least bit like that, but I see the point you're trying to make.

It's very similar to any other large organisations that are necessary in the UK, be that private or public, stuffed to the rafters with nepotism and cronyism, it's why private companies cannot wait to get in being provider of NHS health care, easy money to suckle ever more on the teat of the public monies. They are very choosy on what services they will offer privately.

 

[Minimeister]

This sort of witchhunt and deep mistrust of the market will ensure that Labour will stay firmly in opposition.

Better to acknowledge that existing private healthcare is far more personalised and humane than the NHS model, and try to learn from it.

Of course it is, because it's funded appropriately.

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

Are you able to name names of the US health firms that are lobbying the NHS? After all, there are already a heap of US firms offering services to NHS hospitals, from Cerner to GE, so I hope you'll be more specific. Equally with the consulting firm, as I hope you're not suggesting that a McKinsey or Bain doing some work with the NHS (as I'd imagine they do with a lot of government departments) is somehow them running the show, much less some form of privatisation (which, for the umpteenth time, would require them to own the NHS).

The firm that hijacked the NHS: investigation reveals extraordinary extent of McKinsey’s role in Lansley’s health reforms - NHA Party

Doctors fear the fact that ‘private companies that have advised the Government on how to dismantle t

nhaparty.org

McKinsey foots the Bill

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

The firm that hijacked the NHS: MoS investigation reveals extraordinary extent of international management consultant's role in Lansley's health reforms

A Mail on Sunday investigation has revealed the full extent of McKinsey and Company’s myriad links to the controversial reforms.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I could go on but that's enough because there are lots of negative articles about their involvement in the NHS.

McKinsey are all over the NHS, they advised the government on the 2012 Health and Social care act, which opened up the NHS to private tenders for everything including operations like never before.

McKinsey are constantly trying to move the NHS towards the US system, the Government have knocked them back on recommendations several times because it is moving too much towards privatisation, but slowly slowly catchy monkey is what is happening here.

As far as I'm concerned any patient care and surgical procedures farmed off to private companies is privatisation, turning patients into customers, that is not the NHS, the NHS model is not about making profit out of health care, when it is, profit becomes more important than patients, corners get cut, as they are doing now.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The firm that hijacked the NHS: investigation reveals extraordinary extent of McKinsey’s role in Lansley’s health reforms - NHA Party

Doctors fear the fact that ‘private companies that have advised the Government on how to dismantle t

nhaparty.org

McKinsey foots the Bill

www.thebureauinvestigates.com

The firm that hijacked the NHS: MoS investigation reveals extraordinary extent of international management consultant's role in Lansley's health reforms

A Mail on Sunday investigation has revealed the full extent of McKinsey and Company’s myriad links to the controversial reforms.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I could go on but that's enough because there are lots of negative articles about their involvement in the NHS.

McKinsey are all over the NHS, they advised the government on the 2012 Health and Social care act, which opened up the NHS to private tenders for everything including operations like never before.

McKinsey are constantly trying to move the NHS towards the US system, the Government have knocked them back on recommendations several times because it is moving too much towards privatisation, but slowly slowly catchy monkey is what is happening here.

As far as I'm concerned any patient care and surgical procedures farmed off to private companies is privatisation, turning patients into customers, that is not the NHS, the NHS model is not about making profit out of health care, when it is, profit becomes more important than patients, corners get cut, as they are doing now.

Is quoting the Daily Mail twice supposed to strengthen your case? Funny how they've become a respectable source all of a sudden and much more than the King’s Fund.

 

[Aberblue]

Shouldn't these last two pages be in a seperate NHS thread?

 

[gonetomorrow]

We're still living in post-war Britain. Socialist policies are still valid today. We can still build affordable rented social housing. We can still operate an NHS with free prescriptions.

We can do this in this country. This Britain. Don't give in to the Tory lies which serve to protect a small knot of very rich people who squirrel away their money in offshore havens. People who own the press, the media that informs and misinforms the people. People who urinate in the open mouths of ordinary folk like you and me.

God knows I am no Scot Nat but if that's what it takes then I'll bloody go along with it to build a country where the common folk are respected and looked after.