Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Bruce Wayne]

Playing politics isn’t it,both sides do it and then we end up not discussing the issues at hand

Indeed, much of this supposed privatisation debate seems to revolve around drug procurement, with fears that the Tories will weaken the negotiating clout of NICE in any trade deal with America contrasted with Labour's proposals for some kind of nationalised pharma company for off-patent drugs.

Far be it for me to suggest such things are unimportant, but it's hardly the kind of topic to get blood pulsing, so this nonsense about privatisation was peddled instead.

 

[evilwebby]

Watch the documentary, educate yourself, it will show you where it all started under Thatcher in the 80's and how the 2012 Health and Social care act opened the door to mass privatisation on a scale never seen before and 5 more years of Tory government will continue the escalation of making patients being treated as customers to be shipped in and shipped out as fast as possible to make profits.

Labour PFI scheme built some hospitals on HP basically and it was a poor deal, we all still benefited from using them and still do today.

This sort of witchhunt and deep mistrust of the market will ensure that Labour will stay firmly in opposition.

Better to acknowledge that existing private healthcare is far more personalised and humane than the NHS model, and try to learn from it.

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

And do those companies own the NHS? Do what are essentially contractors have an ownership stake in the NHS?

You are getting a substandard service as a patient, this is new Tory policy that operations are being farmed out since 2012, the legislation passed opened the door for this to happen.

There are US health firms lobbying the government, positioning themselves, queing up to take contracts from the NHS, US consulting firms run the NHS.

Privatisation in any form in the NHS should never happen, and it's happening through the back door, privatisation turns patients into customers, ship them in and get them out as fast as possible to maximise profit, without a thought for the patients needs.

Some Hospital trusts right now are getting fees for every patient admitted, so the quicker you get a free bed the quicker another admission and more fees.

We are on the slippery slope that leads to a US health care model which is quite frankly a disgusting system.

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

This sort of witchhunt and deep mistrust of the market will ensure that Labour will stay firmly in opposition.

Better to acknowledge that existing private healthcare is far more personalised and humane than the NHS model, and try to learn from it.

You can not have profit involved in caring for people, fullstop, have you seen the health care system in the US, those who can't afford it die, those who can't afford it go without Meds they need, suffer.

Do you know how much a Asthma inhaler and a month's meds for it costs in the US?, $400 a month, and Trump wants us to pay more for the US meds we buy, he's stated we get stuff too cheap.

 

[OnlyBlueWillDo]

They have been farmed out as a necessity, I don't believe in private medicine, but the NHS any more money has to go to the front line not the beurocrocy it seems to carry baggage ..,

It's been underfunded by the Tories for a decade Joey, watch the documentary, see what has happened on their watch, and I'll tell you this, they are running it into the ground on purpose, to open it up to privatisation and the plan is working.

 

[Joey66]

It's been underfunded by the Tories for a decade Joey, watch the documentary, see what has happened on their watch, and I'll tell you this, they are running it into the ground on purpose, to open it up to privatisation and the plan is working.

In the last election Labours lavish spending they were only putting a bit more in to the NHS , but I get your point about trusting the Tories ideology - I use the NHS a lot to serious health issues, and a nurse told me on a Saturday XRay that the only guy who got paid that day was the specialist the nursing staff only got time in lieu - she told me conditions with the union being walked over is one day it may get privatised ....as I stated the management is OTT number wise. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians whichever government is in power money gets wasted on management a failed computer system nationally bit the dust costing billions by Gordon Brown the Tory ideology by Cameron and Osborne cut it to the bone etc ...to reform it wasting billions
It's used as a polictical football, moonlighting by top surgeons from conception was a major blunder which has escalated into mere jumping up the waiting list if you have money e.g. Nothing changes it is what it is overall a great free system with faults......

 

[Joey66]

It saddens me to have to make such a basic point, especially to Labour folk who you'd think would be experts, but privatisation is:

"the transfer of a business, industry, or service from public to private ownership and control."

Do private companies own the NHS? No. Will tendering services to them result in them owning the NHS? No. So can we please stop this nonsense that the NHS is being privatised? Probably not because the lie has whipped people up into a frenzy.

Bruce in my field of local authority work if my department lost the contract - i.e.. Outside private source as an employeee under the TUPE terms , an conditions after 12 months - I would have lost all my terms, and conditions almost as bad as losing jobs....
That's the definition of privatisation that's why my management trimmed down to make sure we won the contract ......

 

[zzr45]

You can not have profit involved in caring for people, fullstop,

What about in Germany?

 

[Billy Dean]

What about in Germany?

I live in Germany and in my opinion the system is awful. The NHS beats it hands down.

Edit: and I'm not the only person I know to say that. Most Brits I know here, or non-Brits who have lived in the UK, prefer the NHS.

 

[zzr45]

I live in Germany and in my opinion the system is awful. The NHS beats it hands down.

Edit: and I'm not the only person I know to say that. Most Brits I know here, or non-Brits who have lived in the UK, prefer the NHS.

On paper terms of outcomes (preventable deaths, infant mortality, doctors per patient etc.) it's the better system. So it's a case of what is 'the point' of healthcare systems?

What makes it a worse system in your view?

 

[Billy Dean]

On paper terms of outcomes (preventable deaths, infant mortality, doctors per patient etc.) it's the better system. So it's a case of what is 'the point' of healthcare systems?

What makes it a worse system in your view?

The quality of care basically. Doctors are more concerned with lining their pockets than treating their patients properly. GPs are less competent than British ones so they are much quicker to refer patients to specialists.

Most specialists set up their own surgeries, often at great expense, so as mentioned they are very concerned with wringing as much money out of their patients as possible. I've been insured both publically, and now I've got private insurance thanks to my employer.

When I had public insurance, it took ages to get an appointment when I was sent to a specialist by a GP. I had to pick out the specialist myself after googling surgeries near me. There was no coordination based on the seriousness of the problem. Unless you're lucky enough to a helpful admin person who would make an effort to get you a quicker appointment (this is very rare - they;re mostly very busy and very rude). When I saw the doctors, they would say the only treatment they would recommend is xyz, which unfortunately my insurance doesn't cover so I'd have to pay myself.

Now I'm on private, I can get an appointment with a specialist within a week. Doctors see you are on private insurance and run all kinds of tests which are often unnecessary. In the last 2 years if I'd listened to everything they told me, I'd have had 2 operations and a colonoscopy, all unnecessary. I've been prescribed antibiotics unnecessarily (as a "precaution"). One orthopaedist prescribed me St Johns Wort for a chronic back problem. I had one particular experience with a urologist that was 3rd world standard of medicine.

Doctors have about 0 level of human empathy and I get the strong impression they're not working to uniform guidelines, like they can set up a surgery say in 1990 and then no one is observing how they are updating their knowledge.

Most of the above would probably have been quite easily sorted by a GP in the UK.

On the other hand if you end up in hospital in Germany things are a bit better, the doctors are more honest and seem more up to date.

Although I did end up in A&E once and the system was you had to take a ticket with a number on it and then wait for it to come up on the screen before you even see a triage nurse.

I could go on but I'm just ranting now

 

[davids]

I live in Germany and in my opinion the system is awful. The NHS beats it hands down.

Edit: and I'm not the only person I know to say that. Most Brits I know here, or non-Brits who have lived in the UK, prefer the NHS.

The system here in Spain used to be amazing,state of the art hospital only opened a few yeras ago,now!

'Horrifying': Gandía hospital waiting lists of over three years

WAITING lists at Gandía hospital have climbed to 'horrifying' levels, complain the council's opposition, and 'something needs to be done immediately'. The PP's Víctor Soler and Cristina Moreno said the wait for a simple cataract operation stood, as at June this year, at 1,219 days – or three years

www.costa-news.com

 

[zzr45]

The quality of care basically. Doctors are more concerned with lining their pockets than treating their patients properly. GPs are less competent than British ones so they are much quicker to refer patients to specialists.

Most specialists set up their own surgeries, often at great expense, so as mentioned they are very concerned with wringing as much money out of their patients as possible. I've been insured both publically, and now I've got private insurance thanks to my employer.

When I had public insurance, it took ages to get an appointment when I was sent to a specialist by a GP. I had to pick out the specialist myself after googling surgeries near me. There was no coordination based on the seriousness of the problem. Unless you're lucky enough to a helpful admin person who would make an effort to get you a quicker appointment (this is very rare - they;re mostly very busy and very rude). When I saw the doctors, they would say the only treatment they would recommend is xyz, which unfortunately my insurance doesn't cover so I'd have to pay myself.

Now I'm on private, I can get an appointment with a specialist within a week. Doctors see you are on private insurance and run all kinds of tests which are often unnecessary. In the last 2 years if I'd listened to everything they told me, I'd have had 2 operations and a colonoscopy, all unnecessary. I've been prescribed antibiotics unnecessarily (as a "precaution"). One orthopaedist prescribed me St Johns Wort for a chronic back problem. I had one particular experience with a urologist that was 3rd world standard of medicine.

Doctors have about 0 level of human empathy and I get the strong impression they're not working to uniform guidelines, like they can set up a surgery say in 1990 and then no one is observing how they are updating their knowledge.

Most of the above would probably have been quite easily sorted by a GP in the UK.

On the other hand if you end up in hospital in Germany things are a bit better, the doctors are more honest and seem more up to date.

Although I did end up in A&E once and the system was you had to take a ticket with a number on it and then wait for it to come up on the screen before you even see a triage nurse.

I could go on but I'm just ranting now

No that makes a lot of sense to me. Although there are elements of that in the UK - the amount of statins that have been prescribed thanks to the kickbacks Doctors get is incredible.

As you say, the care in the UK seems more 'caring' . It's the balancing act which is difficult - either an efficient system, or a patient led system. The two aren't particularly going to look the same.

 

[Billy Dean]

No that makes a lot of sense to me. Although there are elements of that in the UK - the amount of statins that have been prescribed thanks to the kickbacks Doctors get is incredible.

As you say, the care in the UK seems more 'caring' . It's the balancing act which is difficult - either an efficient system, or a patient led system. The two aren't particularly going to look the same.

Yes, for me if privatisation influences how doctors treat their patients then that is a worry. That's what I like about the NHS particularly. And I think the caring aspect is important too.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You are getting a substandard service as a patient, this is new Tory policy that operations are being farmed out since 2012, the legislation passed opened the door for this to happen.

There are US health firms lobbying the government, positioning themselves, queing up to take contracts from the NHS, US consulting firms run the NHS.

Privatisation in any form in the NHS should never happen, and it's happening through the back door, privatisation turns patients into customers, ship them in and get them out as fast as possible to maximise profit, without a thought for the patients needs.

Some Hospital trusts right now are getting fees for every patient admitted, so the quicker you get a free bed the quicker another admission and more fees.

We are on the slippery slope that leads to a US health care model which is quite frankly a disgusting system.

Are you able to name names of the US health firms that are lobbying the NHS? After all, there are already a heap of US firms offering services to NHS hospitals, from Cerner to GE, so I hope you'll be more specific. Equally with the consulting firm, as I hope you're not suggesting that a McKinsey or Bain doing some work with the NHS (as I'd imagine they do with a lot of government departments) is somehow them running the show, much less some form of privatisation (which, for the umpteenth time, would require them to own the NHS).