Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Bruce Wayne]

It's been underfunded by the Tories for a decade Joey, watch the documentary, see what has happened on their watch, and I'll tell you this, they are running it into the ground on purpose, to open it up to privatisation and the plan is working.

It's had more money than ever before during that time, and indeed a greater proportion of total government revenues than ever before. Indeed, NHS England were given pretty much the money that NHS England themselves asked for. But then I suppose Simon Stevens is one of those machiavellian conspirators your fairy tale has as the villains.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

In the last election Labours lavish spending they were only putting a bit more in to the NHS , but I get your point about trusting the Tories ideology - I use the NHS a lot to serious health issues, and a nurse told me on a Saturday XRay that the only guy who got paid that day was the specialist the nursing staff only got time in lieu - she told me conditions with the union being walked over is one day it may get privatised ....as I stated the management is OTT number wise. Too many chiefs and not enough Indians whichever government is in power money gets wasted on management a failed computer system nationally bit the dust costing billions by Gordon Brown the Tory ideology by Cameron and Osborne cut it to the bone etc ...to reform it wasting billions
It's used as a polictical football, moonlighting by top surgeons from conception was a major blunder which has escalated into mere jumping up the waiting list if you have money e.g. Nothing changes it is what it is overall a great free system with faults......

Unlike you to post complete codswallop Joe. Managers in the NHS represent 3.7% of the total workforce, so I'd say there's a strong argument for the NHS having too few managers rather than too many, and many of the managers they do have coming from a clinical background so lacking real managerial knowledge.

 

[zzr45]

It's had more money than ever before during that time, and indeed a greater proportion of total government revenues than ever before. Indeed, NHS England were given pretty much the money that NHS England themselves asked for. But then I suppose Simon Stevens is one of those machiavellian conspirators your fairy tale has as the villains.

You would say that as a Tory, Bruce.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Bruce in my field of local authority work if my department lost the contract - i.e.. Outside private source as an employeee under the TUPE terms , an conditions after 12 months - I would have lost all my terms, and conditions almost as bad as losing jobs....
That's the definition of privatisation that's why my management trimmed down to make sure we won the contract ......

With clarity like that Joe, it's hard to fathom how any non-governmental supplier could have possibly done a better job. Maybe they could write in coherent sentences or something?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yes, for me if privatisation influences how doctors treat their patients then that is a worry. That's what I like about the NHS particularly. And I think the caring aspect is important too.

It would be naive to say that money has no influence on how patients are treated, even in the NHS, as their budgets are by definition finite, as are the facilities and resources they have available. Waiting lists are in essence a form of rationing so it happens already.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You would say that as a Tory, Bruce.

The data is all there and publicly available so you'd think it would be easy enough to not be hoodwinked by fairy tales, and yet people still are. It's compounded by this bizarre belief that every Tom, Dick or Harry knows how to fix the NHS.

 

[catcherintherye]

This sort of witchhunt and deep mistrust of the market will ensure that Labour will stay firmly in opposition.

Better to acknowledge that existing private healthcare is far more personalised and humane than the NHS model, and try to learn from it.

The opposite is true though mate. The NHS over performs relative to other models, particularly the US model. We should learn from private healthcare, but the lesson ought to be that where profit motive is introduced standards and quality drops.

In fairness to the Tories, both in terms of rhetoric and even practice they have acknowledged this, and would never fight an election campaign on the above, as they know it would be suicide.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The opposite is true though mate. The NHS over performs relative to other models, particularly the US model. We should learn from private healthcare, but the lesson ought to be that where profit motive is introduced standards and quality drops.

In fairness to the Tories, both in terms of rhetoric and even practice they have acknowledged this, and would never fight an election campaign on the above, as they know it would be suicide.

It'd be a start if the NHS could learn from itself. There are wide ranging health inequalities across the UK, due in part to the different standards of service provided across the country, and the difficulties in disseminating what works well across the service. It's a misnomer to think of the NHS as a homogeneous blob, as in reality it's a hugely complex web of providers with minimal top down oversight.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Unlike you to post complete codswallop Joe. Managers in the NHS represent 3.7% of the total workforce, so I'd say there's a strong argument for the NHS having too few managers rather than too many, and many of the managers they do have coming from a clinical background so lacking real managerial knowledge.

Just to expand on that. The King's Fund did some research into it a while back, and while the economy as a whole operates with around 15% of the workforce in managerial roles, the NHS has (as the figures above state) considerably less, with just 4.8% of the workforce in health related services more broadly in managerial roles. What's more, the research also found that trusts typically spend between 1-2% of their budget on management, which is perhaps why the services as a whole is so badly managed.

Myth four: the NHS has too many managers

Recent media coverage and parliamentary debate suggests that the NHS is bureaucratic and over managed. But how many managers are there in the NHS? And are there really too many?

www.kingsfund.org.uk

 

[catcherintherye]

It'd be a start if the NHS could learn from itself. There are wide ranging health inequalities across the UK, due in part to the different standards of service provided across the country, and the difficulties in disseminating what works well across the service. It's a misnomer to think of the NHS as a homogeneous blob, as in reality it's a hugely complex web of providers with minimal top down oversight.

Yes thats all true.

Taken in it's totality though, it's a far superior system, from a value for money perspective than the US privatised model, and compares well against most other systems.

It doesn't make it perfect, or immune to progress, specifically at a micro level. At a macros level though, it's performance remains solid.

I'm afraid I can't go along with the idea that unless Labour adopts to moving to a position akin to the American system (only really accessible to those in work) we are going to win back a group of disproportionately working class, older voters who may be retired or semi retired and unlikely to be covered by work place healthcare policies. If I was giving advice, that would be about the opposite thing to what I'd advise any Labour party to do.

 

[Billy Dean]

It would be naive to say that money has no influence on how patients are treated, even in the NHS, as their budgets are by definition finite, as are the facilities and resources they have available. Waiting lists are in essence a form of rationing so it happens already.

True, though being influenced by availability of resources is different from just wanting to line your own pockets.

 

[catcherintherye]

Just to expand on that. The King's Fund did some research into it a while back, and while the economy as a whole operates with around 15% of the workforce in managerial roles, the NHS has (as the figures above state) considerably less, with just 4.8% of the workforce in health related services more broadly in managerial roles. What's more, the research also found that trusts typically spend between 1-2% of their budget on management, which is perhaps why the services as a whole is so badly managed.

Myth four: the NHS has too many managers

Recent media coverage and parliamentary debate suggests that the NHS is bureaucratic and over managed. But how many managers are there in the NHS? And are there really too many?

www.kingsfund.org.uk

The two things I take from this are, 1) how well do we think the UK on the whole is performing. And 2) forget the numbers a minute, how do we rate the quality of leadership and management in the uk?

I think we have pitiful management in the UK, for the most part.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As an aside, the King's Fund also give their verdict on the 'privatisation of the NHS' - https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/health-and-social-care-bill/mythbusters/health-privatisation

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The two things I take from this are, 1) how well do we think the UK on the whole is performing. And 2) forget the numbers a minute, how do we rate the quality of leadership and management in the uk?

I think we have pitiful management in the UK, for the most part.

I wouldn't like to comment on the effectiveness of management across the economy, I was merely reflecting on the notion that the NHS wastes money on too many managers, when it has roughly 1/3 the number of managers as the economy as a whole.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

True, though being influenced by availability of resources is different from just wanting to line your own pockets.

This is the thing though. We (rightly) point to the US as exactly where we don't want to go, but I'm fairly sure that it's actually illegal to run a healthcare company in the US if you're not a doctor, so this notion that doctors are saintly is a bit wide of the mark. After all, the doctors lobby opposed the creation of the NHS for a great many years, and were opposed to the kind of friendly societies that the NHS was modelled on. It was only once their 'mouths were stuffed with gold' that they acquiesced, and they sit proudly among the richest members of society ever since.