Current Affairs The Labour Party

[Billy Dean]

How come Corbyn and his front line have been quite unable to explain all of this for the past couple of years then.....

He has explained it:

This is just a short extract from a longer article in the BBC:

Jeremy Corbyn has challenged the next Tory leader to hold another referendum before taking Britain out of the EU, saying Labour will campaign for Remain.

Mr Corbyn says the party will take this position to stop "no deal or a damaging Tory Brexit".

But he does not say what he would do if he won a general election and was placed in charge of the Brexit process.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

How come Corbyn and his front line have been quite unable to explain all of this for the past couple of years then.....

Its very simple the message, just that they are posed a liteny of what if, questions. And as if they were in power and party to all the negotiations going on between the actual government and the EU. When in reality they know as much of what is going on from the same sources as the press, briefings and announcements from the great and of the EU and whatever waffle comes out of the current government. Labour are held more accountable than the actual Conservative Government.

Anyway, after the trashing of the pound Boris Johnson doing some back peddling on 31st October... Oh dear!

 

[tsubaki]

Johnson has an approval rating of around 30%, so given that a good number of those people will be Tories, I'd say it's far from clear that people think he's a good chap. He's certainly not popular in London any more. As for stopping Brexit, I'd say I want to more than Corbyn does (or ever has). You only have to look at the reaction of DaveK whenever anyone even remotely Blairite leaves (or is thrown out of) the party. Such is the hatred, he'd send them to the gallows if he could, yet Labour need people like that to vote for them. That's what I mean by the fundamental disconnect between hardcore Corbynites and the wider electorate. It's a chasm.

No, you mean the fundamental disconnect between hardcore Corbynites and the Blairites. They do not represent the wider electorate, and probably never did - and just so we are clear, when they were in charge of the party far more people left, or were thrown out by dubious means or had contests fixed against them than ever has happened under Corbyn. Corbyn and the wider left also buckled down and supported those government far more than these "moderates" have supported him.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

No, you mean the fundamental disconnect between hardcore Corbynites and the Blairites. They do not represent the wider electorate, and probably never did - and just so we are clear, when they were in charge of the party far more people left, or were thrown out by dubious means or had contests fixed against them than ever has happened under Corbyn. Corbyn and the wider left also buckled down and supported those government far more than these "moderates" have supported him.

How do you know that to be true? Labour have only won an election in recent times by staking out the centre ground so I'm not sure how you can say the electorate are closet Corbynites.

 

[Bluerover]

Is it completely inconceivable that the sovereign people of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland might be asked to democratically reaffirm their vote of three years ago in the light of the economic realities that leaving will bring?

If Brexit is so popular, then its supporters should not fear such a referendum??

Surely it would make the case for leaving aes triplex??

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Is it completely inconceivable that the sovereign people of the United Kingdom and Northern Ireland might be asked to democratically reaffirm their vote of three years ago in the light of the economic realities that leaving will bring?

If Brexit is so popular, then its supporters should not fear such a referendum??

Surely it would make the case for leaving aes triplex??

As some one who voted remain, Referendum like our EU one, are not compatible with UK Westminster democracy as outlined by Bruce here.

Those in government are party to infinitely more information that the electorate about 99% of the decisions they make, so by and large it's bonkers to bow to the 'will of the people' as the 'people' are largely ignorant. Even those of us who are interested in this stuff almost certainly have much less information to go on than our elected officials. That's why we elect them to make decisions on our behalf, not for them to ask us what we really really want.

It would be met with significant derision if another referendum was held with not just the best of scenario and EU keeps going until waffle waffle...Also the question would be framed very different now.

And the reason for this mess is the Conservative policy in running Government upto 2017 and thus losing its majority. Make no mistake had may won as the polls predicted her deal would have long been signed off, and she would still be PM... Only another election sorts this out.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As some one who voted remain, Referendum like our EU one, are not compatible with UK Westminster democracy as outlined by Bruce here.


It would be met with significant derision if another referendum was held with not just the best of scenario and EU keeps going until waffle waffle...Also the question would be framed very different now.

And the reason for this mess is the Conservative policy in running Government upto 2017 and thus losing its majority. Make no mistake had may won as the polls predicted her deal would have long been signed off, and she would still be PM... Only another election sorts this out.

I've no idea tbh, but presumably the sitting government get to word any referendum however they wish? I can't imagine it's in Johnson's interest to word things in any way that would not result in a leave outcome.

 

[The binman chronicles]

How do you know that to be true? Labour have only won an election in recent times by staking out the centre ground so I'm not sure how you can say the electorate are closet Corbynites.

Perhaps you can say most Labour supporters in the heartlands are Cornynites, but the truth is to win an election Labour has to appeal to the liberal and soft Tory vote. Even more so now Scotland is under SNP control.

It is unlikely with JC in charge that he could appeal to these people.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

I've no idea tbh, but presumably the sitting government get to word any referendum however they wish? I can't imagine it's in Johnson's interest to word things in any way that would not result in a leave outcome.

Depends on the majority and then electoral commission and it will have to engage the lowest common denominator.

Perhaps you can say most Labour supporters in the heartlands are Cornynites, but the truth is to win an election Labour has to appeal to the liberal and soft Tory vote. Even more so now Scotland is under SNP control.

It is unlikely with JC in charge that he could appeal to these people.

Age is more pertinent, many of those who you speak of will most likely be middle aged and over. Labour under Corbyn have written swathes of them off, well until they need social care, then many see the light, oddly...

 

[tsubaki]

How do you know that to be true? Labour have only won an election in recent times by staking out the centre ground so I'm not sure how you can say the electorate are closet Corbynites.

Where did I say they were closet Corbynites? My point was there is no evidence whatsoever that the "centrism" on offer in Labour would be any more popular than what we have now - in fact there is quite a lot of evidence that it would fair worse.

Though as you mention it, given that Corbyn got millions more votes than any Labour leader did since Blair in 1997 he is probably closer to what people want than the Blairites are (especially this generation of Blairites). Even Tony lost four million voters in eight years, and 200,000 party members (half of the entire party) - and he was by far the best of them.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Where did I say they were closet Corbynites? My point was there is no evidence whatsoever that the "centrism" on offer in Labour would be any more popular than what we have now - in fact there is quite a lot of evidence that it would fair worse.

Though as you mention it, given that Corbyn got millions more votes than any Labour leader did since Blair in 1997 he is probably closer to what people want than the Blairites are (especially this generation of Blairites). Even Tony lost four million voters in eight years, and 200,000 party members (half of the entire party) - and he was by far the best of them.

Obviously it's hard to quantify, but given how the EU elections have played out since then, I suspect a large number of those votes were tactical in the sense that anyone but the Tories would have been good. If he got the same number of votes in the next election I would be amazed.

 

[tsubaki]

Obviously it's hard to quantify, but given how the EU elections have played out since then, I suspect a large number of those votes were tactical in the sense that anyone but the Tories would have been good. If he got the same number of votes in the next election I would be amazed.

Perhaps, though surely that would be much more applicable to the EU election? After all, that election was never meant to happen and 50% of the vote went to parties that had at the time a combined total of eleven MPs.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Perhaps, though surely that would be much more applicable to the EU election? After all, that election was never meant to happen and 50% of the vote went to parties that had at the time a combined total of eleven MPs.

Sure, it's quite possible that people will flock back to both Tories and Labour in a general election, and with first past the post that seems more likely than not. Even if they do though, is that a commendation on Corbyn's leadership or an indication that in a two horse race they aren't the Tories?

 

[tsubaki]

Sure, it's quite possible that people will flock back to both Tories and Labour in a general election, and with first past the post that seems more likely than not. Even if they do though, is that a commendation on Corbyn's leadership or an indication that in a two horse race they aren't the Tories?

Does it really matter given what the Tories are now?

Corbyn isn't perfect by any means, but when you look at who is in the Cabinet, what they actually think about many people in this country and what they are likely to do if they stay in power I honestly cannot understand how anyone who isn't some kind of sociopath could not put the most effective vote they can to get rid of them.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Does it really matter given what the Tories are now?

Corbyn isn't perfect by any means, but when you look at who is in the Cabinet, what they actually think about many people in this country and what they are likely to do if they stay in power I honestly cannot understand how anyone who isn't some kind of sociopath could not put the most effective vote they can to get rid of them.

The people of Brecon must be sociopaths then. 4th place in the by-election.

Professor Roger Awan-Scully, the head of politics and international relations at Cardiff University: “There’s lots of dissatisfaction with Jeremy Corbyn, lots of dissatisfaction with the direction of the party. In its ultimate historic bastion of Wales I think Labour is in some serious trouble.”