Current Affairs The Labour Party

[davek]

If you need a primer of that read this and especially the last piece. All labour members who don't lea e labour are anti semites.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/a-dark-day-for-britain-1.480357

They're a disgrace. The line they peddle about the LP leadership being an existential threat to all British Jews is an insult to the Jews who were slaughtered in the Holocaust.

It's an inversion of the truth, in fact. It's the Tory and Blairite commitment to Middle East wars that destabilise the region and could end up burying Israel.

We are now in Orwellian times. We see that all around us....

 

[tsubaki]

If you need a primer of that read this and especially the last piece. All labour members who don't lea e labour are anti semites.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/a-dark-day-for-britain-1.480357

That is a risible piece from a man (Pollard) who is all manner of objectionable, but just look at what it contains:

Among Mr Corbyn and his allies, Israel is the greatest evil on earth. And because Jews are held responsible for Israel, we are seen not as the victims of racism but its perpetrators.

This is what banding around terms like Zionist, or thinking there is nothing wrong with Hatton demanding that Jews do something about the actions of another government, leads to.

Stop doing it for gods sake.

 

[dholliday]

We've been here before but forgotten the lessons of the past: the manipulation of language to entrap; the witch hunt.

It's all there in that anti-semitism non-story.

I don't think it's that we've forgotten the lessons of the past, I think it's that most people don't get it, and never got it.

Winston Smith's last idealism was that he believed in the proles...Orwell knew that the proles, or today the general public, aren't that arsed to understand stuff any deeper than what the headlines/telescreens are already telling them.

The media understand this, they know the constant drip-drip of associating something bad like anti-semitism with something good like Jeremy Corbyn will damage the good part. Floating voters, that mythical decisive element to who elects us, are arguably more swung by headline-propaganda than coherent analysis. i.e. "I like Labour but that Corbyn's a wrongun, I keep reading about it so must be true."

Neurolinguistic programming via headline-media is, sad to say, quite influential. Corbyn's numbers in the GE 2017 were pretty good despite the campaign against him: shades of Trump's story which aside from obviously-different politics they do share an interesting similarity of having established media against them from the off. Trump's win rocked the boat in many ways, not least in how that media-driven neurolinguistic programming isn't as powerful as it likes to think it is.

UK folk need to heed that lesson from Trump's win: ignore the media and focus on whether they like Corbyn's vision or not (admittedly that vision does include his somewhat non-committal Brexit strategy), and vote accordingly.

 

[dholliday]

The point about menshevik was how stating someones political belief first becomes shorthand, and ends up replacing sensible argument.

That's debate all over. Less so here as we know we're blues so the debate-quality is pretty good, but on other platforms there's more name-calling than cogent argument.

 

[tim cahill]

If you need a primer of that read this and especially the last piece. All labour members who don't lea e labour are anti semites.

https://www.thejc.com/comment/leaders/a-dark-day-for-britain-1.480357

That article is ridiculous.

 

[magicjuan]

That is a risible piece from a man (Pollard) who is all manner of objectionable, but just look at what it contains:



This is what banding around terms like Zionist, or thinking there is nothing wrong with Hatton demanding that Jews do something about the actions of another government, leads to.

Stop doing it for gods sake.

Me?

 

[magicjuan]

That article is ridiculous.

But it's the leader piece. It will be picked up and run with and no amount of denouncing Hatton or being even more vigilant and diluted with wordings will prevent or rebalance the outright lies that are used to counter.
On one side you have, perhaps occassionally, wilful ignorance of terminology or genuine confusion due to misprepresentation and misunderstanding versus unadulterated falsehoods, character assassinations and lies.
We hold these truths to be self evident.

 

[magicjuan]

I don't think it's that we've forgotten the lessons of the past, I think it's that most people don't get it, and never got it.

Winston Smith's last idealism was that he believed in the proles...Orwell knew that the proles, or today the general public, aren't that arsed to understand stuff any deeper than what the headlines/telescreens are already telling them.

The media understand this, they know the constant drip-drip of associating something bad like anti-semitism with something good like Jeremy Corbyn will damage the good part. Floating voters, that mythical decisive element to who elects us, are arguably more swung by headline-propaganda than coherent analysis. i.e. "I like Labour but that Corbyn's a wrongun, I keep reading about it so must be true."

Neurolinguistic programming via headline-media is, sad to say, quite influential. Corbyn's numbers in the GE 2017 were pretty good despite the campaign against him: shades of Trump's story which aside from obviously-different politics they do share an interesting similarity of having established media against them from the off. Trump's win rocked the boat in many ways, not least in how that media-driven neurolinguistic programming isn't as powerful as it likes to think it is.

UK folk need to heed that lesson from Trump's win: ignore the media and focus on whether they like Corbyn's vision or not (admittedly that vision does include his somewhat non-committal Brexit strategy), and vote accordingly.

I think where things went awry was trying to use NLP online, it was a new process and there was a lot of confusion in the feedback as to what was actual and what was generated intentionally, i.e. they didn't factor in their own bots. Won't happen next time.

 

[tsubaki]

Me?

No, that was to the people here who have been doing it.

 

[tim cahill]

John Barnes is being accused of being antisemetic after appearing on question time...

John Barnes claims ‘Jews are not a race’ on BBC Question Time - Twitter eurpts in anger | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

JOHN Barnes has claimed ‘Jews are not a race’ on BBC Question Time sparking social media outrage.

www.express.co.uk

 

[dholliday]

John Barnes is being accused of being antisemetic after appearing on question time...

John Barnes claims ‘Jews are not a race’ on BBC Question Time - Twitter eurpts in anger | Politics | News | Express.co.uk

JOHN Barnes has claimed ‘Jews are not a race’ on BBC Question Time sparking social media outrage.

www.express.co.uk

That line there "sparks social media outrage" is the problem. How often do we hear that line? Very. It creates easy clickbait media content for one, and more sinister it makes it simple to further agendas.

John Barnes might be RS, but he's been a sensible voice away from football on a number of issues like race, identity and outrage-culture (he defended Liam Neeson, for example).

Fair play to him.

Regarding his comment about jewish not being a race: it's debatable, and he's entitled to his opinion. Here's one example why it's debatable and hence a valid opinion either way:

Judge rules that Judaism is not a race but Jewish people can be targeted for racism.

More interesting was his other comment: "you can criticise the state of Israel without being anti-Semitic."

As I & @davek mentioned earlier: focus on language is being used to deflect from more important matters at hand.

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

The Israeli government is a disgusting murderous regime, that their money is reaching parliament is genuinely disturbing, however much of a roundabout way it creeps in. I'm afraid you have been forced to subtly move your argument around once met with reasonable counter points from Dave, I applaud and am enjoying the debate though.

It's clear example of how our political representation can be purchased through lobbying and pressure groups, this step towards the American political system is worrying.

 

[zzr45]

Zionist used in the context it is by many on here is yet another example of the conspiracy theorist language that has infiltrated the left.

People use it to describe the ‘sneaky Jew’ that’s trying to bring in a supposed new world order and the context in which it is used is lifted straight from Mein Kampf.

‘The Zionists are holding back the LP’ could almost be reproduced word for word from Mein Kampf. The sneaky Jew is directly holding you back.

The true meaning of the term is redundant nowadays, it’s usage now only harks back to the pages of a madman’s writing.

 

[tsubaki]

As I & @davek mentioned earlier: focus on language is being used to deflect from more important matters at hand.

It is, which is why its a complete mystery to me that so many people who want to criticise Israel knowingly use language that allows others to deflect like that. Another good thread on twitter:

 

[tim cahill]

Zionist used in the context it is by many on here is yet another example of the conspiracy theorist language that has infiltrated the left.

People use it to describe the ‘sneaky Jew’ that’s trying to bring in a supposed new world order and the context in which it is used is lifted straight from Mein Kampf.

‘The Zionists are holding back the LP’ could almost be reproduced word for word from Mein Kampf. The sneaky Jew is directly holding you back.

The true meaning of the term is redundant nowadays, it’s usage now only harks back to the pages of a madman’s writing.

The problem is that the language around Israel seems to be getting censored to the point where it becomes difficult to discuss issues about Israel without saying something you’re not supposed to say. The goalposts keep changing too. Zionist didn’t used to be considered an anti semitic term.

I don’t believe that John Barnes for example is anti Semitic but as soon as he gives his opinion on the topic he gets labelled as anti Semitic. The only sure way to not be labelled anti Semitic seems to be to avoid all discussions around Jews and Israel all together. That’s increasingly difficult to do as it’s in the news constantly.

You mention conspiracy theories but when Israel seem to murder Palestinians at will without sanctions it will make people wonder how they are getting away with it. What you’re implying is that someone who questions this must be antisemitic. Which is ridiculous!

The longer this “anti semitism in the Labour Party” story goes on the more people on the left will question whether Israel is influencing politics in our country. Which you are implying is anti Semitic. So people on the left will appear more and more anti Semitic until the story goes away. Which I imagine will be when Corbyn is no longer leader as he is who people are blaming for all of this. Which is nonsense!