Current Affairs The Labour Party

[davids]

...I think there’s enough reports from a vast array of elected Labour officials to determine what is going on, and text/twitter etc leave a footprint.

It’s a shame, I just think this Labour Party are not being ‘clever’ in exploiting the opportunity they have to gain power.

To be honest the infiltration of Blairite sleepers hasn't helped much either.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

being anti-israeli policy towards Palestine is not anti-semitic.

it's dangerous that this is being painted as such for it gives Israel a free pass to treat Palestinians how they see fit (oh the irony...the awful horrible irony).

Zionism is the desire for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Anti-zionism is therefore the desire for such a place not to exist. It's hard not to see that as an extreme position to take and one that should be condemned. I'm sure it's possible to criticise the Israeli government using the same kind of terms you would use to criticise any other government, yet that doesn't happen.

 

[davids]

I can't believe the either the Labour or Conservative party still exist, the EU referendum finally showed they don't represent anybody. As Peter Hitchens said they are 2 corpses keeping each other up. There's no similarity between Labour voters in the North and the liberal elite of Islington who Corbyn is close to. The 2 party political system that exists in Britain and America creates a "black is white" political divide. Ideas that were once promoted by the religious right and the far right are now being parroted by people who are supposedly left wing. The real problem is in our universities, they produce a kind of wishy washy leftism that doesn't address economic or social problems.

We have a winner! The idea of any of them at Kingswood...lol

 

[larrygobfiend]

Zionism is the desire for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Anti-zionism is therefore the desire for such a place not to exist. It's hard not to see that as an extreme position to take and one that should be condemned. I'm sure it's possible to criticise the Israeli government using the same kind of terms you would use to criticise any other government, yet that doesn't happen.

Not necessarily. It might me more to do with the way they're going about it?

 

[tsubaki]

Zionism is the desire for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Anti-zionism is therefore the desire for such a place not to exist. It's hard not to see that as an extreme position to take and one that should be condemned. I'm sure it's possible to criticise the Israeli government using the same kind of terms you would use to criticise any other government, yet that doesn't happen.

Ironically even that post is evidence of how the Israeli Government is treated in ways that no other government would be treated.

Would anyone accept a state being founded for and giving clear preference to (certain) members of a religious group over everyone else, including the indigenous population, nowadays?

 

[davids]

Zionism is the desire for Israel to exist as a Jewish state. Anti-zionism is therefore the desire for such a place not to exist. It's hard not to see that as an extreme position to take and one that should be condemned. I'm sure it's possible to criticise the Israeli government using the same kind of terms you would use to criticise any other government, yet that doesn't happen.

I think now Zionism has become more aligned to Israeli expansionism.

 

[Blue 1]

Bit of a copypasta, but:

There have been 1106 complaints to the NEC about anti-Semitism. 433 did not involve Labour members. Of the 673 who were:

96 members were immediately suspended.
146 received a reminder of conduct.
220 cases did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules to proceed with an investigation.
211 were issued with a Notice of Investigation.
Of the cases who were issued with a Notice of Investigation or suspension, there have been 96 NEC antisemitism disputes panel decisions.
42 members referred to national constitutional committee (NCC).
16 members issued with a formal NEC warning.

The following 18 NCC decisions have been made:

12 members were expelled.
6 received sanctions.
24 cases currently with the NCC, Labour’s top disciplinary body, are outstanding.

This doesn't sound like a party failing to act over anti-Semitism to me. It sounds like a party determined to get to grips with the problem and to root out the anti-semites in their midst.

Now where are the equivalent figures for the Tory Party?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Ironically even that post is evidence of how the Israeli Government is treated in ways that no other government would be treated.

Would anyone accept a state being founded for and giving clear preference to (certain) members of a religious group over everyone else, including the indigenous population, nowadays?

Quite possibly not, but there was quite a unique historical context behind that creation that doesn't really apply to any other religious group today. I mean it's not like the persecution of Jews doesn't have centuries of tradition that came to a horrendous head at the hands of the Nazis. The whole issue in Israel and Palestine seems nothing if not complex to me, and blurting out blunderheaded phrases like Dave has been in this thread does little to really reflect that. It's a topic that deserves better than cheap sloganism.

 

[davids]

Bit of a copypasta, but:

There have been 1106 complaints to the NEC about anti-Semitism. 433 did not involve Labour members. Of the 673 who were:

96 members were immediately suspended.
146 received a reminder of conduct.
220 cases did not have sufficient evidence of a breach of party rules to proceed with an investigation.
211 were issued with a Notice of Investigation.
Of the cases who were issued with a Notice of Investigation or suspension, there have been 96 NEC antisemitism disputes panel decisions.
42 members referred to national constitutional committee (NCC).
16 members issued with a formal NEC warning.

The following 18 NCC decisions have been made:

12 members were expelled.
6 received sanctions.
24 cases currently with the NCC, Labour’s top disciplinary body, are outstanding.

This doesn't sound like a party failing to act over anti-Semitism to me. It sounds like a party determined to get to grips with the problem and to root out the anti-semites in their midst.

Now where are the equivalent figures for the Tory Party?

Wonder if any of those sanctioned supported Spurs?

'Yid' chanting by Tottenham Hotspur fans no longer an arrestable offence at White Hart Lane says Met Police

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[davek]

Well firstly, you're not a jew, so you're not using it in the manner you suggest, and secondly, you're using it as a direct insult to either members of the Labour party or former members of the Labour party on account of their faith (Ian Austin being the latest Jewish person to have this tossed their way). It doesn't look good at all.

How do you know I'm not a Jew?

And yes, it is an insut to call a person a Zionist in the context I quoted you from the Jewish Voices for Peace. That's because it's like calling someone a supremacist or apartheidist. Those in Labour Friends of Israel have offered no condemnation of the settlements within the West Bank and some have even supported them...and they've blamed Palestinians themselves for the UN condemned conditions they live under. The UN have passed 65 resolutions condemning these acts and they're laughed at by the Israeli Government and these former Labour MPs have failed again and again to recognise them. Which is why I asked what the problem was with condemning these MPs and using the word Zionist to do so. I mean, in the 1980s would you seek to admonish someone for calling out an apologist for the apartheid regime in SA who described them as supremacists and apartheidists?

BTW, this isn't personal to you. You're not alone in the blurring of anti-semitism with the critique of Zionism. There's a lot of debate around the subject and there is a quite obvious push to get "zionism" taken out of the political lexicon by the supporters of the Israeli State. Which is why I asked whether you had adopted a policy on it.

 

[Walken]

Quite possibly not, but there was quite a unique historical context behind that creation that doesn't really apply to any other religious group today. I mean it's not like the persecution of Jews doesn't have centuries of tradition that came to a horrendous head at the hands of the Nazis. The whole issue in Israel and Palestine seems nothing if not complex to me, and blurting out blunderheaded phrases like Dave has been in this thread does little to really reflect that. It's a topic that deserves better than cheap sloganism.

The Israeli government is a disgusting murderous regime, that their money is reaching parliament is genuinely disturbing, however much of a roundabout way it creeps in. I'm afraid you have been forced to subtly move your argument around once met with reasonable counter points from Dave, I applaud and am enjoying the debate though

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The Israeli government is a disgusting murderous regime, that their money is reaching parliament is genuinely disturbing, however much of a roundabout way it creeps in. I'm afraid you have been forced to subtly move your argument around once met with reasonable counter points from Dave, I applaud and am enjoying the debate though

You've been taking fence sitting classes from Corbyn. Say what you really think man!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

How do you know I'm not a Jew?

And yes, it is an insut to call a person a Zionist in the context I quoted you from the Jewish Voices for Peace. That's because it's like calling someone a supremacist or apartheidist. Those in Labour Friends of Israel have offered no condemnation of the settlements within the West Bank and some have even supported them...and they've blamed Palestinians themselves for the UN condemned conditions they live under. The UN have passed 65 resolutions condemning these acts and they're laughed at by the Israeli Government and these former Labour MPs have failed again and again to recognise them. Which is why I asked what the problem was with condemning these MPs and using the word Zionist to do so. I mean, in the 1980s would you seek to admonish someone for calling out an apologist for the apartheid regime in SA who described them as supremacists and apartheidists?

BTW, this isn't personal to you. You're not alone in the blurring of anti-semitism with the critique of Zionism. There's a lot of debate around the subject and there is a quite obvious push to get "zionism" taken out of the political lexicon by the supporters of the Israeli State. Which is why I asked whether you had adopted a policy on it.

It (use of Zionist as a slur) just doesn't sit right as it seems to refer to all Jewish people (who I suspect wish to have a place where they are free of persecution) and the actions of the Israeli state, whose methods for achieving that are contentious. I just can't for the life of me can't fathom why another form of expression can't be used, other than the express wish to offend.

 

[larrygobfiend]

It (use of Zionist as a slur) just doesn't sit right as it seems to refer to all Jewish people (who I suspect wish to have a place where they are free of persecution) and the actions of the Israeli state, whose methods for achieving that are contentious. I just can't for the life of me can't fathom why another form of expression can't be used, other than the express wish to offend.

Jesus christ, mate. I think barbaric is a more suitable word.

 

[tim cahill]

It (use of Zionist as a slur) just doesn't sit right as it seems to refer to all Jewish people (who I suspect wish to have a place where they are free of persecution) and the actions of the Israeli state, whose methods for achieving that are contentious. I just can't for the life of me can't fathom why another form of expression can't be used, other than the express wish to offend.

I don’t think it refers to all Jews. Just those that support the actions of the Israeli state.