Current Affairs The Labour Party

[roydo]

So he's @Butters then, just before the letter writing?

I wont lie, someone else was on my mind.

 

[roydo]

Take Joan Ryan for instance. Calling her a zionist might be within the bounds of what the word means, given her previous statements, but all most people hear is “it’s the left being anti-Semitic again”. She then repeats that and any argument dissolves into the usual mutual slurs.

Thats it really. Like, the bland definition of a Zionist is one who wants to develop and protect a Jewish state, ergo, Israel. So when someone is described as a Zionist, on here or elsewhere, as something that is "bad", or not in a positive way at least, the conclusion one could make is that those using the term disagree with the development and protection of a Jewish state.

 

[magicjuan]

Thats it really. Like, the bland definition of a Zionist is one who wants to develop and protect a Jewish state, ergo, Israel. So when someone is described as a Zionist, on here or elsewhere, as something that is "bad", or not in a positive way at least, the conclusion one could make is that those using the term disagree with the development and protection of a Jewish state.

If you added 'in the way it operates and behaves now' and then you're closer.

 

[larrygobfiend]

Thats it really. Like, the bland definition of a Zionist is one who wants to develop and protect a Jewish state, ergo, Israel. So when someone is described as a Zionist, on here or elsewhere, as something that is "bad", or not in a positive way at least, the conclusion one could make is that those using the term disagree with the development and protection of a Jewish state.

Or they're against an apartheid state?

 

[roydo]

If you added 'in the way it operates and behaves now' and then you're closer.

Or they're against an apartheid state?

You are both underlining the point I made. Which is the problem I alluded to.

The dictionary definition of a Zionist is as I stated. The protection and development of a Jewish state.

You are then taking your own personal opinions of Israel, and in effect, saying that you are right, and ergo, a Zionist is evil. The whole premise is that your views on Israel are the only ones in town.

Please note, I am not making a point on Israel per ce, more the point why that calling a Labour MP leaving the party as a Zionist, in that its a bad thing, can be construed as anti semetic.

 

[magicjuan]

Ah ok, I wasn't aware of those and have no truck at all with people criticising the Israeli government, or indeed any government. My problem is using such an inflammatory term that can be taken to refer to an entire faith.

The way ISIS is associated and promoted by the west of being representati e of Islam. Don't hear the same levels of condemnation sorry. To be fair the language used all around the discussion isn't the point it's the dual standards and rank hypocrisy that has always been applied to successive Israeli governments down the years and moreso the more aggressive their actions
Anything uber inflammatory is supported by the west.

 

[magicjuan]

You are both underlining the point I made. Which is the problem I alluded to.

The dictionary definition of a Zionist is as I stated. The protection and development of a Jewish state.

You are then taking your own personal opinions of Israel, and in effect, saying that you are right, and ergo, a Zionist is evil. The whole premise is that your views on Israel are the only ones in town.

Please note, I am not making a point on Israel per ce, more the point why that calling a Labour MP leaving the party as a Zionist, in that its a bad thing, can be construed as anti semetic.

Simply, no.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Zionist is also a frequently used slur in the increasingly violent demonstrations in France where antisemitism has boomed.

 

[roydo]

Simply, no.

Based on your opinion of Israel.

Look, I dont really give much of a fig about Israel either way. All I was trying to explain WHY lobbing the tag as being a Zionist at a defecting Labour MP can be seen as an insult. The media, being as they are, will happily attach the tag of anti semetic as a matter of course.

Play the game would be my advice to the LP.

 

[davek]

It is a slippery slope, but when a word had been taken over in the way that has people should really look at what effect using it has.

Take Joan Ryan for instance. Calling her a zionist might be within the bounds of what the word means, given her previous statements, but all most people hear is “it’s the left being anti-Semitic again”. She then repeats that and any argument dissolves into the usual mutual slurs.

When people don’t use an easy term to describe her stance, as they did over her initial response to the killings at the border fence, it is a much more effective tactic.

It's not been "taken as a word", it's a self-applied ideology of the Israeli far right - and they do so with gusto, btw - and it applies also to describe anyone who support their aims to colonise more Arab lands within the currently constitutes state of Israel. It's not a contested word. That's the point.

Where are we headed with this thinking? Because to impute something more sinister to another's use of a word is pure thought police territory.

 

[dholliday]

Zionist is also a frequently used slur in the increasingly violent demonstrations in France where antisemitism has boomed.

anti-semitism hasn't boomed anywhere, it's a cover to prevent criticism of israeli foreign policy and wider influence on Amerikan real-politik.

 

[Simon Buttle]

Despite the fact i work in scientific research i am absolutly lost when it comes to politics. Can someone please explain in laymans terms what is actually going on with the Labour party please? who exactly is bullying who?

 

[magicjuan]

Based on your opinion of Israel.

Look, I dont really give much of a fig about Israel either way. All I was trying to explain WHY lobbing the tag as being a Zionist at a defecting Labour MP can be seen as an insult. The media, being as they are, will happily attach the tag of anti semetic as a matter of course.

Play the game would be my advice to the LP.

The game can be played when the rules remain the same. Everything is now inference and supposition and highlighting 'considered intent' as de facto anti one thing or another.
Israel is as complex a situation as there is on this planet, it is connected, directly or indirectly, to each single major issue we are facing, from ecological, economical, technological issues to stability in the sense of war which leads directly to the economical issues.
It is why criticism of Israel is being stamped down, and it really is, because it is a critique of the established order, how society is structured.
The tag isn't offensive in real terms is it, not when stood up against tacit support for a regime that indiscriminately kicks in the teeth of a 6 year old girl or shoots a medic in the back who is tending to an injured child.
Define anti semitism and stick to it and most will abide, define crimes against humanity, done, acknowledge when they're broken and then uphold international law. It's what most people would want.

 

[larrygobfiend]

Based on your opinion of Israel.

Look, I dont really give much of a fig about Israel either way. All I was trying to explain WHY lobbing the tag as being a Zionist at a defecting Labour MP can be seen as an insult. The media, being as they are, will happily attach the tag of anti semetic as a matter of course.

Play the game would be my advice to the LP.

What's the game? Letting the Israeli Government have a free pass to do as it pleases?

They (the Israeli Government) have created this environment where everybody's too scared to say anything negative against them. They've created their own words, their own definitions and their own rules.

They literally fund smear campaigns against the leader of the opposition because he dared to criticise them.

If Zionism means the right for Jews to have their own state then that's fine, I would respect that if they could figure out a way to do it fairly and peacefully. If Zionism means to have their own state they need to snatch land and murder then I'm happy to be labeled an anti Zionist.

...Rather be labelled that than an apartheid apologist.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

anti-semitism hasn't boomed anywhere, it's a cover to prevent criticism of israeli foreign policy and wider influence on Amerikan real-politik.

Up 70% in France (say the Economist this week)