The trouble with that definition as regards Israel is that it doesn't mention that it is necessarily at the expense of another people who live there.
Current Affairs The Labour Party
- Thread starter Number_25
- Start date
- Status
The trouble with that definition as regards Israel is that it doesn't mention that it is necessarily at the expense of another people who live there.
dholliday
deconstructed rep
we need to think about what stats mean, where they come from and what they're not telling us. i.e.
- is anti-semitism specifically defined as being pro-actively hateful towards jewish folk? if not, then how is it defined and how is it counted?
- does the increased % of Arab population in France (and elsewhere in Europe) have an influence in a supposed boom of anti-semitism? i think it does as most Arab folk won't have kind words to say about Israel and the EU has many millions more Arabs here now than just a few years ago.
My own analysis of the situation is that current anti-israeli sentiment, whether you're an Arab or a european pacifist, has very little to do with ancient history or the jewish people as a folk or judaism as a religion. It has very much to do with israeli policies, crimes & wider influences over the last 50 years.
That the israeli government and their considerable influence in Western media have been painting this criticism as being related to the anti-jew hatred which led to the Holocaust is distasteful in the extreme. But it works as very few in Western media call them out on it.
So to get back to my point: what does that 70% figure actually mean? What does it mean to you?
dholliday
deconstructed rep
just to add to my above post: look at the Labour MP's who are claiming they're resigning due to this supposed boom of anti-semitism in the party:
- what policies have these individuals voted for in the past?
you'll notice most voted for pro-israeli/US warmongering/arms-dealing policies.
What might that tell us? Well, Corbyn is a pacifist. He doesn't fit. We then consider how anti-Corbyn even traditionally-liberal media like The Guardian have been...
There's enough pieces of the puzzle out there to make a clear enough picture as to what's going on.
1966efc
Player Valuation: £20m
Semitic is a term which denotes a group of languages, including Arabic, and the peoples who speak them. - including, naturally, Arabs.
Zionist, as Roydo pointed out, merely describes those who support a Jewish state.
"Eretz Israel" is the term for those who want and / or work towards the expansion of that state.
Zionist, as Roydo pointed out, merely describes those who support a Jewish state.
"Eretz Israel" is the term for those who want and / or work towards the expansion of that state.
magicjuan
Player Valuation: £60m
It's interpretation. Words, and therefore definitions, are adopted and adapted and have flexibility until there is another motive.
When I use 'anti zionist' I am not attacking the state of Israel but the behaviour of its representatives and the manner by which they are achieving it.
Semitic, as you say, is regional, and is historical, not just lingual. But has come to only be used to address prejudices against jewish people.
Eretz Y'Israel is extremist zionism, the sort that seeks regional dominance regardless of the price paid by lives lost.
So, there you have the ambiguity, innuendo, interpretation for the most volatile subject in international relations. That ambiguity is deliberate, not accidental.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
You can see even in this thread though the insidous way that questioning the use of the (legitimate) term "Zionism" to critique the Israeli state and its supporters works. Force people to second guess their use of the word; cow them into partial submission and self regulation.
It's interpretation. Words, and therefore definitions, are adopted and adapted and have flexibility until there is another motive.
When I use 'anti zionist' I am not attacking the state of Israel but the behaviour of its representatives and the manner by which they are achieving it.
Semitic, as you say, is regional, and is historical, not just lingual. But has come to only be used to address prejudices against jewish people.
Eretz Y'Israel is extremist zionism, the sort that seeks regional dominance regardless of the price paid by lives lost.
So, there you have the ambiguity, innuendo, interpretation for the most volatile subject in international relations. That ambiguity is deliberate, not accidental.
It's pretty obvious strategy but effective.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
That is the thing though dave - as a critique of modern Israeli politics and supporters of the state, "Zionism" is a rubbish term with which to describe them. The state exists - all "Zionist" means in that context is a supporter of that state. Its like calling someone a Menshevik.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
Basically Corbyn won in 2015 so a number of MPs have repeatedly tried to dethrone him, because they can't be bothered to develop an alternative politics and they know the membership would never back them.
Their most effective tactic so far to point to anti-semitism, aided by Corbyn's past associations (though a lot of that is extremely questionable) and the way in which some on the left use language that can suggest dodgy beliefs.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
I dont get the point.
dholliday
deconstructed rep
This not just for this topic but also for identity-politics guff which dominates a lot of hysterical social media discussion. The term people of colour replacing coloured to describe folk of darker skin is one such example.
All this concentration on language does is, as you say, force people to focus on the wrong things, deflecting from whatever the true matter at hand might be.
Orwell understood how language can be used to control thought. However famous his 1984 is, many people still don't really appreciate its message.
What are your views as to why so many ostensibly-Left members (and voters) are against Corbyn? He's pretty much what we wanted in a potential PM ever since John Smith passed on.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
We've been here before but forgotten the lessons of the past: the manipulation of language to entrap; the witch hunt.
It's all there in that anti-semitism non-story.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
Dave - in the past year the Israelis have shot more than ten thousand unarmed protestors at the Gaza border, including nurses, teenagers and members of the press and have killed more than a hundred of them.
To condemn it, it doesn't need people to refer to Zionism. In fact, when the people who excuse these killings actively look to be called zionist so they can delegitimize the arguments against them, its positively daft to use the word.
The point about menshevik was how stating someones political belief first becomes shorthand, and ends up replacing sensible argument.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
As I said in the thread already, the word is not used as an invective. It's a bona fide description of those who land grab in the state of Israel and their supporters in the British LP, who refuse to condemn it. The atrocities you list are an outcome of that. Zionism covers them. You dont have to invent or use a separate word.
magicjuan
Player Valuation: £60m
If you need a primer of that read this and especially the last piece. All labour members who don't lea e labour are anti semites.
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
You do when the word has become so loaded with meaning that it defeats the purpose of the argument in the first place. What the Israeli government is doing is bad enough, you don't need to sum it up with a catchy phrase.
- Status