Current Affairs The Labour Party

[NilSatisOptimum]

The longer this “anti semitism in the Labour Party” story goes on the more people on the left will question whether Israel is influencing politics in our country. Which you are implying is anti Semitic. So people on the left will appear more and more anti Semitic until the story goes away. Which I imagine will be when Corbyn is no longer leader as he is who people are blaming for all of this. Which is nonsense!

By time Corbyn is no longer leader the real danger is the meaning being anti-Semitic with have little credence or the powerful response it should rightly have have because its thrown out on a whim to shut down democratic critique of the Israel government.

 

[davek]

I don't think it's that we've forgotten the lessons of the past, I think it's that most people don't get it, and never got it.

Winston Smith's last idealism was that he believed in the proles...Orwell knew that the proles, or today the general public, aren't that arsed to understand stuff any deeper than what the headlines/telescreens are already telling them.

The media understand this, they know the constant drip-drip of associating something bad like anti-semitism with something good like Jeremy Corbyn will damage the good part. Floating voters, that mythical decisive element to who elects us, are arguably more swung by headline-propaganda than coherent analysis. i.e. "I like Labour but that Corbyn's a wrongun, I keep reading about it so must be true."

Neurolinguistic programming via headline-media is, sad to say, quite influential. Corbyn's numbers in the GE 2017 were pretty good despite the campaign against him: shades of Trump's story which aside from obviously-different politics they do share an interesting similarity of having established media against them from the off. Trump's win rocked the boat in many ways, not least in how that media-driven neurolinguistic programming isn't as powerful as it likes to think it is.

UK folk need to heed that lesson from Trump's win: ignore the media and focus on whether they like Corbyn's vision or not (admittedly that vision does include his somewhat non-committal Brexit strategy), and vote accordingly.

I dont think the bogus "anti-semitism" plays well in an election. It's always down the list in opinion polls of reasons for not voting Labour. Corbyn can cut through that in a month long election campaign; in interview one-to-one he's affable and rational and it makes an impact - it certainly gave him an advantage over the Maybot last time around (although there will be a price to pay where any of the rats who left Labour are in marginal constituencies who, if they run, will end up handing them to the Tories). My concern over debating terms of reference is that it's quite obvioulsy a power play in debate: taking words off the table and replacing them with more anodyne terminology is a means of shutting down discussion. It's unhealthy.

 

[zzr45]

The problem is that the language around Israel seems to be getting censored to the point where it becomes difficult to discuss issues about Israel without saying something you’re not supposed to say. The goalposts keep changing too. Zionist didn’t used to be considered an anti semitic term.

I don’t believe that John Barnes for example is anti Semitic but as soon as he gives his opinion on the topic he gets labelled as anti Semitic. The only sure way to not be labelled anti Semitic seems to be to avoid all discussions around Jews and Israel all together. That’s increasingly difficult to do as it’s in the news constantly.

Nothing has been changed though, Zionist has been a word used pejoratively for decades, it suddenly seems to entered the lexicon of people as a 'legitimate' term of describing someone who supports/doesn't outwardly condemn Israel. It's like calling someone who supports a united Ireland a Fenian, because 200 years ago it wasn't a derogatory term. Zionist is a term dripping with implied meaning borrowed by the Nazis and used by fringe lunatics for decades to imply a New World Order.

And that's the link to conspiracy theories, it comes down to almost this convergence with what crackpots have been claiming for years - that international Jewry is threatening to enslave man kind. Using the word Zionist implies that every Jewish person on the planet is linked to this global conspiracy (https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/absent-without-leave-2/ https://www.presstv.com/detail/2016/12/18/499476/uk-911-zionists-hate-crime-islamophobia-hassanally)

You mention conspiracy theories but when Israel seem to murder Palestinians at will without sanctions it will make people wonder how they are getting away with it. What you’re implying is that someone who questions this must be antisemitic. Which is ridiculous!

The longer this “anti semitism in the Labour Party” story goes on the more people on the left will question whether Israel is influencing politics in our country. Which you are implying is anti Semitic. So people on the left will appear more and more anti Semitic until the story goes away. Which I imagine will be when Corbyn is no longer leader as he is who people are blaming for all of this. Which is nonsense!

Where am I saying that any criticism of Israel is anti semitic? I'm not. I'm saying that lumping all Jews in with the state of Israel (which the term Zionist does) is revealing a fairly huge swathe of unconscious racism/hatred that people seem to have. Why the left and, I suspect, many of those on here struggle with this, is because they are supposed to be the 'good guys' and only bad Tory meffs hate people based on their race/religon etc. I suspect that it's an uneasy feeling for many people. (Before people start as well that I'm putting myself on a pedestal, I'm well aware of my own unconscious racism..)

By all means, be anti-Israel, but don't lump those who have nothing to do with it in with them, which is exactly what that term does.

Corbyn isn't the problem, despite his blunders in the past. The problem is are the people he's brought out of this conspiracy theorist world which thrives on the oppressors vs the oppressed (which is a gross simplification of his message) and for whom the 'Zionist' movement is the pinnacle of that. I'd love to know how many of the complaints that have been brought up against people have been brought up against members that joined post Corbyn.

 

[Walken]

I dont think the bogus "anti-semitic" plays in an election. It's always down the list in opinion polls of reasons for not voting Labour. Corbyn can cut through that in a month long election campaign; in interview one-to-one he's affable and rational and it makes an impact - it certainly gave him an advantage over the Maybot last time around (although there will be a price to pay where any of the rats who left Labour are in marginal constituencies who, if they run, will end up handing them to the Tories). My concern over debating terms of reference is that it's quite obvioulsy a power play in debate: taking words off the table and replacing them with more anodyne terminology is a means of shutting down discussion. It's unhealthy.

They aren't just taking words off the table, which I don't have a massive problem with to be honest, but there is an attempt to take the discussion of massive human rights violations and all kind of sinister actions from a disgusting regime off the table

 

[tim cahill]

Where am I saying that any criticism of Israel is anti semitic?

You haven’t said that but you’ve implied that if someone thinks that Israel get away with their crimes due to the international power and influence that they have then that would be anti Semitic.

 

[davek]

They aren't just taking words off the table, which I don't have a massive problem with to be honest, but there is an attempt to take the discussion of massive human rights violations and all kind of sinister actions from a disgusting regime off the table

I agree 100%. But looking at this from a British perspective, there's two substantial objectives to their strategy as I see it:

1/ the LP soft left (Blairite-lite in reality) and pure Blairites still in the party (many of whom formed the core of those resigning - Gapes, Leslie, Ryan etc) all come through factions like the Progress Group., Open Labour and even Compass and are pro-European and pro-Washington. They'll do all they can to bring Corbyn down or back to the "centre" ground (their calls for more "representative" shadow cabinet is one symptom of this) in order to bring a possible Labour Government's foriegn policy back in the Atlantacist fold.

2/ there's a massive push by the Israeli State to persuade their zionist colleagues in both Labour and Conservative parties to counter the BDS movement (the boycott of Israel on economic and cultural grounds to isolate the extreme regime there) which is alarming Israel. That's an ongoing battle and a front Netanyahu and his gangsters want closed down.

Those two issue are driving the bogus "anti-semitism" campaign. It's why words are now in play as fair game to be taken down and / or censured.

 

[dholliday]

It is, which is why its a complete mystery to me that so many people who want to criticise Israel knowingly use language that allows others to deflect like that.

Zionism is the national movement for jewish folk, it's like saying conservative is an insult to Tories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Tim said it best:

The problem is that the language around Israel seems to be getting censored to the point where it becomes difficult to discuss issues about Israel without saying something you’re not supposed to say. The goalposts keep changing too. Zionist didn’t used to be considered an anti semitic term.

Nothing has been changed though, Zionist has been a word used pejoratively for decades, it suddenly seems to entered the lexicon of people as a 'legitimate' term of describing someone who supports/doesn't outwardly condemn Israel. It's like calling someone who supports a united Ireland a Fenian, because 200 years ago it wasn't a derogatory term. Zionist is a term dripping with implied meaning borrowed by the Nazis and used by fringe lunatics for decades to imply a New World Order.

And that's the link to conspiracy theories, it comes down to almost this convergence with what crackpots have been claiming for years - that international Jewry is threatening to enslave man kind.

The crackpots & haters are irrelevant. They don't nullify the points or language used by coherent sensible folk, especially if that language or argument may somewhat overlap. People with a jewish background are hugely over-represented - in terms of %-population - within high-ranking influential business, cultural & financial positions in the US (which is the most influential country in the world). What that means can either be debated in a coherent sensible fair manner, or in the manner of the crackpots who spout anti-jewish hatred. But just because the crackpots also bring up the point (to further their own agenda) it doesn't nullify the topic from discussion full stop.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

John McDonnell, Labour’s hard man

The Tories are wrong to dismiss John McDonnell as a Poundland Lenin. He is much more dangerous

www.economist.com

Interesting piece in this week's edition comparing the performance of Corbyn and McDonnell since their ascendance.

 

[tim cahill]

People with a jewish background are hugely over-represented - in terms of %-population - within high-ranking influential business, cultural & financial positions in the US (which is the most influential country in the world).

You see I don’t know whether this is true or not. But I don’t think that having that opinion is anti Semitic, which apparently it is. If it is true then can believing a fact be anti Semitic??

Seems a bit Orwellian to me.

 

[dholliday]

You see I don’t know whether this is true or not. But I don’t think that having that opinion is anti Semitic, which apparently it is. If it is true then can believing a fact be anti Semitic??

Seems a bit Orwellian to me.

It is true. What it means is where the debate is. If debate is getting shut down, then that rather pushes the suspicions in a certain direction (hence the conspiracy theorists having quite the following).

Personally I don't believe in any organised grand conspiracy: I've worked long enough in a variety of positions to know we humans collectively just aren't that organised. But we can push in a certain direction (Cheney & his cronies pushing in a certain direction is one example of how it's possible).

There is an argument to be made that Israel have been pushing in a certain direction via many channels, not least of which is their influence over the media & US government policy: influencing media & government usually comes from institutions of business, finance & culture.

 

[zzr45]

You haven’t said that but you’ve implied that if someone thinks that Israel get away with their crimes due to the international power and influence that they have then that would be anti Semitic.

No I haven’t. I’ve said be anti Israeli all you want. I’ve said don’t imply that all Jews are in on it. Which the term Zionist does.

 

[dholliday]

No I haven’t. I’ve said be anti Israeli all you want. I’ve said don’t imply that all Jews are in on it. Which the term Zionist does.

It doesn't. Just as labelling someone conservative doesn't imply that everyone in the UK is a Tory, tho' conservatism is the dominant national doctrine. The Conservatives have been in power for the vast majority of our lifetimes, but outsiders don't tar all Brits with that brush.

 

[tim cahill]

No I haven’t. I’ve said be anti Israeli all you want. I’ve said don’t imply that all Jews are in on it. Which the term Zionist does.

You said this:
“Zionist used in the context it is by many on here is yet another example of the conspiracy theorist language that has infiltrated the left.

People use it to describe the ‘sneaky Jew’ that’s trying to bring in a supposed new world order and the context in which it is used is lifted straight from Mein Kampf.

‘The Zionists are holding back the LP’ could almost be reproduced word for word from Mein Kampf. The sneaky Jew is directly holding you back.”

Wouldn’t the concept of Israel exerting it’s power and influence internationally to avoid sanctions fit with the conspiracy from Mein Kampf that you referred to?

 

[tsubaki]

Zionism is the national movement for jewish folk, it's like saying conservative is an insult to Tories:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

No, it isn't, and tim is still wrong.

Zionism as your link says was the movement for a national home for the Jewish people, which was achieved in 1948. Since then, as your link says, it has become shorthand for being pro-Israel and unquestionably has been used by some as shorthand for describing someone as pro-Jewish, or even Jewish itself. This is so obvious a statement that people on the left have been saying it for years now, and yet there are some who still insist that their right to use the word - rather than, for example, "pro-Israeli" - and their right not for their language to be policed overrides everything else, especially what the use of that language results in (and is clearly resulting in).

Read David Schneider's thread on twitter yesterday for a far more fantastic explanation of this than mine:

 

[dholliday]

No, it isn't, and tim is still wrong.

Zionism as your link says was the movement for a national home for the Jewish people, which was achieved in 1948. Since then, as your link says, it has become shorthand for being pro-Israel and unquestionably has been used by some as shorthand for describing someone as pro-Jewish, or even Jewish itself. This is so obvious a statement that people on the left have been saying it for years now, and yet there are some who still insist that their right to use the word - rather than, for example, "pro-Israeli" - and their right not for their language to be policed overrides everything else, especially what the use of that language results in (and is clearly resulting in).

Read David Schneider's thread on twitter yesterday for a far more fantastic explanation of this than mine:

is, not was. Present tense, not past. The very first paragraph of the Wikipedia piece:

Zionism is the national movement of the Jewish people that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel (roughly corresponding to Canaan, the Holy Land, or the region of Palestine). Since the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, Zionism continues primarily to advocate on behalf of Israel and to address threats to its continued existence and security.