Current Affairs The Labour Party

[tsubaki]

See Larry below:






Those industries are American. National companies buying influence within their own national politics to improve profits is the natural order of things.

A foreign nation buying influence at the top-tier nation of the world to better justify their war crimes within the international court of opinion? That's a whole different story.

Re: Larrys point - do you really think you can only speak about about the killings and occupation if you use the term Zionist?

Re your point, the Saudis, Russians, Ukrainians and many others do the same, as do US companies and individuals.

 

[dholliday]

Re: Larrys point - do you really think you can only speak about about the killings and occupation if you use the term Zionist?

I'm not as interested in the term Zionist as you are, I'm fully interested in Israeli policy towards Palestinians. Yet what have we discussed these last two pages? We've been distracted by language, rather than the important matters.

That was my, and others', point. These last two pages have proven it. What's happened here is what happens almost everywhere where Israeli policy attempts to get discussed.

Neurolinguistic programming...it's insidious.

 

[larrygobfiend]

Zionizm is the right for Jews to have their own state. To achieve this, they've killed , injured and stolen land off the Palestinians. The definition has altered in a lot of people's minds as a result of the Israeli state's actions. They've created the hate, not the other way around.

 

[tsubaki]

I'm not as interested in the term Zionist as you are, I'm fully interested in Israeli policy towards Palestinians. Yet what have we discussed these last two pages? We've been distracted by language, rather than the important matters.

That was my, and others', point. These last two pages have proven it. What's happened here is what happens almost everywhere where Israeli policy attempts to get discussed.

Neurolinguistic programming...it's insidious.

I think all the last few pages have proved is that there are people on the left who, on being repeatedly told that there is a real problem with the language some people are using, think “Well I’m not an antisemite” and keep using said language.

 

[tim cahill]

You've just suggested that Israel is acting just as Hitler proscribed, which again, is where a lot of the context of the derogatory term 'Zionist' comes from. If you can't understand the link between that and the use of the word 'Zionist' being seen as a bit beyond the pale, then I fear you might be a little out of your depth there. (Again, echoing an earlier point someone made about the lack of, for a better term, 'education' being half the problem at present.)

I’m suggesting that just because Hitler wrote something a very long time ago doesn’t make it anti Semitic to point out that Israel seems to have a lot power and influence in the world. How else would they continually get away with their action?

Don’t misinterpret what people say to imply they are racist and then tell them they’re out of their depth. If you misunderstand something then perhaps it’s you that is out of your depth?

 

[Tubey]

All the last few days on here has proven beyond doubt that there's an obvious, deep-seated anti-semitism problem with the left of politics in this country.

All you've done is not only dig the hole further, but throw away the spade and take a JCB to it.

 

[tsubaki]

Zionizm is the right for Jews to have their own state. To achieve this, they've killed , injured and stolen land off the Palestinians. The definition has altered in a lot of people's minds as a result of the Israeli state's actions. They've created the hate, not the other way around.

....

 

[tsubaki]

All the last few days on here has proven beyond doubt that there's an obvious, deep-seated anti-semitism problem with the left of politics in this country.

All you've done is not only dig the hole further, but throw away the spade and take a JCB to it.

Ealing Labour made a good point, which Schneider retweeted (sorry for posting it again)



This is what we are seeing in most cases, though with the people who liked larry's post above that might be stretching it a bit because it is clearly indefensible.

 

[Tubey]

Ealing Labour made a good point, which Schneider retweeted (sorry for posting it again)



This is what we are seeing in most cases, though with the people who liked larry's post above that might be stretching it a bit because it is clearly indefensible.

Let's be blunt about it - it stems from the "Jewish people control the money" and so on racism. So it's the natural scapegoat for those wanting the redistribution of wealth/marxist approach to politics. As you say, not everyone will be doing it on purpose, but at the same time they're perfectly happy to perpetuate it in their own echo chamber.

It's the exact same as immigration being the spark for the hard right. They need an adversary to blame for why their own politics isn't being used/going perfectly.

For Labour specifically, there's an obvious problem. It's not the media inventing it - it is very real.

My view is it starts with Corbyn, but I accept you'll disagree - but when he's defending anti-semitic murals, contesting the very definition of anti-semitism and calling Jews "they" when discussing how "they don't understand irony", then for me he's clear as day anti-semitic, he enables anti-semitism and it's no coincidence that it's exploded since he took the reins.

 

[magicjuan]

I think all the last few pages have proved is that there are people on the left who, on being repeatedly told that there is a real problem with the language some people are using, think “Well I’m not an antisemite” and keep using said language.

And therefore it comes down to intent and interpretation. People are being branded anti semitic and the label sticks and in these days that cannot be shaken off. It all seems to balance on the word Zion and its derivations, which have changed a multiple of times down the years, historically and politically. Is it enough to justify the ongoing attacks on labour and enough to distract from the real atrocities being carried out under the orders of Israel/Knesset?

 

[tsubaki]

And therefore it comes down to intent and interpretation. People are being branded anti semitic and the label sticks and in these days that cannot be shaken off. It all seems to balance on the word Zion and its derivations, which have changed a multiple of times down the years, historically and politically. Is it enough to justify the ongoing attacks on labour and enough to distract from the real atrocities being carried out under the orders of Israel/Knesset?

Clearly it is. We've spent all week talking about this rather than the fact Netanyahu is planning to go into a coalition with a party so extreme that its direct forebear was banned here and in the US (and in Israel itself for a long time).

I don't think Labour is an anti-semitic party, or that Corbyn is an anti-semite, but there is a real issue here and it is causing real concern (and damage). The issue is allowing the TIG MPs, the Tories and their mates in the media to attack us, and we do ourselves no favours by pretending that it doesn't exist or insisting that it doesn't apply to us.

 

[magicjuan]

Clearly it is. We've spent all week talking about this rather than the fact Netanyahu is planning to go into a coalition with a party so extreme that its direct forebear was banned here and in the US (and in Israel itself for a long time).

I don't think Labour is an anti-semitic party, or that Corbyn is an anti-semite, but there is a real issue here and it is causing real concern (and damage). The issue is allowing the TIG MPs, the Tories and their mates in the media to attack us, and we do ourselves no favours by pretending that it doesn't exist or insisting that it doesn't apply to us.

I don't see anyone really disagreeing with any of that, or that there is, to varying degrees, anti semitism within the labour party, but, and I say these words with consideration, in the scheme of priorities amongst people, politicised, politically active or savvy or not, there are a few more important things to deal with.
The criticism amongst centrists or moderates that Corbyn hasn't taken advantage of an atrocious tory government and be leading polls by a huge margin is a constant, despite the blatant opportunism taken by Hodge, Berger et al to raise anti semitism when Corbyn's stock appears to be on the rise. Personally I see that as being anti semitic too because it denigrates the issue to personal or ulterior motives and can be seen.as 'retribution or revenge', but damaging it is.
Labour cannot fight tory dogma, a capitalist media and members of its own PLP and expect to make ground.
This isn't to underplay anti semitism in any way, not at all, but to most it seems at least inappropriate to use anti semitism at every opportunity to knock Corbyn, taint his character and that of the party with the most contentious of issues put forward ny the media, people are becoming distinctly wary of the subject to the point of closing down debates.
Have you noticed the lack of media reporting on Israel this week, of all weeks?
It is becoming a 'controlled subject' and accussations flying around in a whirl of propaganda (the use of that actual word will be open to complaint for connotation) and as I think you have pointed out, education is omitted, but it has to be on both sides, not everything is 'anti semitic' because it can be and 'anti semitism' has a more intricate definition than is portrayed.
Having worked within more than a few holocaust memorial days, including a national one, I have seen first hand the genuine suffering of anti semitism and those 'using it' for personal use. It was clear then what was anti semitic, but no longer, that unnerves me because it hasn't been through education, it's been through manipulation and that for me is as an equal, if not bigger, issue.

 

[magicjuan]

Let's be blunt about it - it stems from the "Jewish people control the money" and so on racism. So it's the natural scapegoat for those wanting the redistribution of wealth/marxist approach to politics. As you say, not everyone will be doing it on purpose, but at the same time they're perfectly happy to perpetuate it in their own echo chamber.

It's the exact same as immigration being the spark for the hard right. They need an adversary to blame for why their own politics isn't being used/going perfectly.

For Labour specifically, there's an obvious problem. It's not the media inventing it - it is very real.

My view is it starts with Corbyn, but I accept you'll disagree - but when he's defending anti-semitic murals, contesting the very definition of anti-semitism and calling Jews "they" when discussing how "they don't understand irony", then for me he's clear as day anti-semitic, he enables anti-semitism and it's no coincidence that it's exploded since he took the reins.

'Jewish people control the money'. That's where it stems from? Ok. So anti semitism originates with banking. Got it.

 

[dholliday]

I think all the last few pages have proved is that there are people on the left who, on being repeatedly told that there is a real problem with the language some people are using, think “Well I’m not an antisemite” and keep using said language.

They're being told lol but what if they disagree with what they're being told?

 

[tsubaki]

I don't see anyone really disagreeing with any of that, or that there is, to varying degrees, anti semitism within the labour party, but, and I say these words with consideration, in the scheme of priorities amongst people, politicised, politically active or savvy or not, there are a few more important things to deal with.
The criticism amongst centrists or moderates that Corbyn hasn't taken advantage of an atrocious tory government and be leading polls by a huge margin is a constant, despite the blatant opportunism taken by Hodge, Berger et al to raise anti semitism when Corbyn's stock appears to be on the rise. Personally I see that as being anti semitic too because it denigrates the issue to personal or ulterior motives and can be seen.as 'retribution or revenge', but damaging it is.
Labour cannot fight tory dogma, a capitalist media and members of its own PLP and expect to make ground.
This isn't to underplay anti semitism in any way, not at all, but to most it seems at least inappropriate to use anti semitism at every opportunity to knock Corbyn, taint his character and that of the party with the most contentious of issues put forward ny the media, people are becoming distinctly wary of the subject to the point of closing down debates.
Have you noticed the lack of media reporting on Israel this week, of all weeks?
It is becoming a 'controlled subject' and accussations flying around in a whirl of propaganda (the use of that actual word will be open to complaint for connotation) and as I think you have pointed out, education is omitted, but it has to be on both sides, not everything is 'anti semitic' because it can be and 'anti semitism' has a more intricate definition than is portrayed.
Having worked within more than a few holocaust memorial days, including a national one, I have seen first hand the genuine suffering of anti semitism and those 'using it' for personal use. It was clear then what was anti semitic, but no longer, that unnerves me because it hasn't been through education, it's been through manipulation and that for me is as an equal, if not bigger, issue.

It is, but that is why we should look at ourselves first. The criticism of Corbyn on this is twofold - firstly, his own past and his associations before he became leader, and secondly what "his supporters" say. The first one is a matter of record and can - and has been - defended by loads of people, including me, you, dave and others on here.

The second is a lot more complicated. As Jennie Formby revealed recently, a lot of the people doing this online are not Labour members and the format (especially Twitter) is one that lends itself to idiotic abuse. However, that does not mean that there are not people in Labour who are either genuinely anti-semitic or that there are (rather more) people are saying things which suggest anti-semitism. We need to make sure that we are not doing the job of the anti-Corbyn crowd.