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[tsubaki]

They're being toldlol but what if they disagree with what they're being told?

Then that is a matter for them. Your cause isn't helped by liking posts like #3483 above, by the way.

 

[tim cahill]

Let's be blunt about it - it stems from the "Jewish people control the money" and so on racism. So it's the natural scapegoat for those wanting the redistribution of wealth/marxist approach to politics.

I doubt that. There might be a few that think that way but not a significant amount.

I think it’s far more likely to be down to feelings about Israel and the way people express that and the way others interpret what is said. It’s clear from this thread that people have very different opinions about what is anti Semitic and what isn’t. It’s the same on Twitter. I saw a post by momentum the other day calling someone out for being anti Semitic. I completely disagreed and so did hundreds of others.

Beyond a tiny minority I doubt there is much I’ll feeling towards Jews within the Labour Party or within the country in general, but there is probably a lot of statements made by people that can be interpreted as anti Semitic.

 

[magicjuan]

It is, but that is why we should look at ourselves first. The criticism of Corbyn on this is twofold - firstly, his own past and his associations before he became leader, and secondly what "his supporters" say. The first one is a matter of record and can - and has been - defended by loads of people, including me, you, dave and others on here.

The second is a lot more complicated. As Jennie Formby revealed recently, a lot of the people doing this online are not Labour members and the format (especially Twitter) is one that lends itself to idiotic abuse. However, that does not mean that there are not people in Labour who are either genuinely anti-semitic or that there are (rather more) people are saying things which suggest anti-semitism. We need to make sure that we are not doing the job of the anti-Corbyn crowd.

The 'his supporters' bit correlates with identifying all jews as zionists, as for his past, in what regard? Why are there no similar figures held up from other arenas?

 

[tsubaki]

I doubt that. There might be a few that think that way but not a significant amount.

I think it’s far more likely to be down to feelings about Israel and the way people express that and the way others interpret what is said. It’s clear from this thread that people have very different opinions about what is anti Semitic and what isn’t. It’s the same on Twitter. I saw a post by momentum the other day calling someone out for being anti Semitic. I completely disagreed and so did hundreds of others.

Beyond a tiny minority I doubt there is much I’ll feeling towards Jews within the Labour Party or within the country in general, but there is probably a lot of statements made by people that can be interpreted as anti Semitic.

You've literally liked a post saying the Jews killed, injured and stolen land off the Palestinians.

 

[tim cahill]

Then that is a matter for them. Your cause isn't helped by liking posts like #3483 above, by the way.

Are you going to explain why you think that post is indefensible?

 

[tsubaki]

The 'his supporters' bit correlates with identifying all jews as zionists, as for his past, in what regard? Why are there no similar figures held up from other arenas?

Because it is the easiest stick to beat him with. The point is we should stop making it such an easy stick with which they can beat him, and the fact that its wrong for them (the opposition to Corbyn) label everyone the same should really be telling us that its wrong when people on our side do it.

 

[dholliday]

Then that is a matter for them. Your cause isn't helped by liking posts like #3483 above, by the way.

State specifically what's wrong with that post rather than dancing around it like you are.

 

[dholliday]

You've literally liked a post saying the Jews killed, injured and stolen land off the Palestinians.

wow...you don't think that's happened?

 

[tsubaki]

Are you going to explain why you think that post is indefensible?

That I even need to speaks volumes.

Zionizm is the right for Jews to have their own state - this is not indefensible, though its not an accurate statement of what Zionism is

To achieve this, they've killed , injured and stolen land off the Palestinians. - "they've" in this context can only mean "Jews" given the structure of the sentence, and what precedes it. If he'd said "the nascent Israeli state" or "Zionist paramilitary and terrorist groups" or something similar it would be a lot more accurate (especially when talking about 1948 and the buildup), but he didn't - its the Jews who did that.

The definition has altered in a lot of people's minds as a result of the Israeli state's actions. They've created the hate, not the other way around. - so Zionism is a negative term then, because of what "they" did. The hate that exists against "them" is "their" fault.

 

[tim cahill]

That I even need to speaks volumes.

Zionizm is the right for Jews to have their own state - this is not indefensible, though its not an accurate statement of what Zionism is

To achieve this, they've killed , injured and stolen land off the Palestinians. - "they've" in this context can only mean "Jews" given the structure of the sentence, and what precedes it. If he'd said "the nascent Israeli state" or "Zionist paramilitary and terrorist groups" or something similar it would be a lot more accurate (especially when talking about 1948 and the buildup), but he didn't - its the Jews who did that.

The definition has altered in a lot of people's minds as a result of the Israeli state's actions. They've created the hate, not the other way around. - so Zionism is a negative term then, because of what "they" did. The hate that exists against "them" is "their" fault.

That’s how you have interpreted it. As he starts with Zionism I think it’s fair to assume that he is referring to the zionists responsible for the actual killing, injuring and stealing. Why would Jews that weren’t involved be blamed?? The hate he is referring to is between Israelis and Palestinians in my opinion not a hatred of Jews.

But you seem to be insistent on interpreting everything anyone says negatively if they use certain terms. These terms have to be used in this sort of debate. Stop assuming everyone hates Jews. Why would they??

 

[Bruce Wayne]

This isn't going very well is it?

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

This isn't going very well is it?

Its the holiday effect.

 

[tsubaki]

That’s how you have interpreted it. As he starts with Zionism I think it’s fair to assume that he is referring to the zionists responsible for the actual killing, injuring and stealing. Why would Jews that weren’t involved be blamed?? The hate he is referring to is between Israelis and Palestinians in my opinion not a hatred of Jews.

But you seem to be insistent on interpreting everything anyone says negatively if they use certain terms. These terms have to be used in this sort of debate. Stop assuming everyone hates Jews. Why would they??

I disagree, entirely. I don't think everyone hates Jews, I do however think there are people on the left who think their right to use language of their choice overrides what that language is doing to others, or the damage it is doing to the left as a whole.

 

[larrygobfiend]

Then that is a matter for them. Your cause isn't helped by liking posts like #3483 above, by the way.

That I even need to speaks volumes.

Zionizm is the right for Jews to have their own state - this is not indefensible, though its not an accurate statement of what Zionism is

To achieve this, they've killed , injured and stolen land off the Palestinians. - "they've" in this context can only mean "Jews" given the structure of the sentence, and what precedes it. If he'd said "the nascent Israeli state" or "Zionist paramilitary and terrorist groups" or something similar it would be a lot more accurate (especially when talking about 1948 and the buildup), but he didn't - its the Jews who did that.

The definition has altered in a lot of people's minds as a result of the Israeli state's actions. They've created the hate, not the other way around. - so Zionism is a negative term then, because of what "they" did. The hate that exists against "them" is "their" fault.

FFS sake I mentioned the Israeli government earlier in all of my earlier posts. I messed up in that one post. I think people who've been following this thread knew what I meant.

Thanks for not addressing my personally. Quite snidey tbh

 

[tsubaki]

FFS sake I mentioned the Israeli government earlier in all of my earlier posts. I messed up in that one post. I think people who've been following this thread knew what I meant.

Thanks for not addressing my personally. Quite snidey tbh

I did reply to your post (with some .... ); the comments to them was because they liked it.

This is a good illustration of what I am on about though. You posted something that said what that said (in error), and decent posters liked it - and then defended liking it. That the terms Jew / Zionist / Israeli are seen as interchangeable by some is precisely the problem here.