Current Affairs The Labour Party

[orchard]

I doubt it, we'd be talking about 45000 people (with three digits) or 4500 (with four) - you might be able to fix one of the assemblies but not many more than that.

You nailed it in the first paragraph. It's Westminster that needs sorting and the current Labour party have ignored recent calls from its members and unions to look at the voting system.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

find a way? the allocation of the numbers and the following selection are ripe for manipulation.

We already have a robust system used by the CPS, it might be feasible to use/mirror this.

 

[tsubaki]

You nailed it in the first paragraph. It's Westminster that needs sorting and the current Labour party have ignored recent calls from its members and unions to look at the voting system.

I can understand why the membership especially thinks that, but TBF that is a bit of a red herring in itself. There is nothing wrong with our voting system; a set group of individuals electing one of their own to represent them in an assembly entirely composed of representatives of the other parts of the nation is the ideal system.

The problem of course is that the people don’t control the selection of the potential representatives nor are the representatives (if elected) only or even mainly concerned with representing their constituents. National parties play a much bigger role in that respect and will inevitably corrupt things if they are allowed, because of the obvious tendency for them to protect their own positions.

Modern national level parties are after all largely responsible for destroying mass participation in politics. If they could (and they already pretend this is the case) they’d only have party names on the ballot. Any proper reform has to make them illegal, with serious prison sentences and other sanctions for establishing them even secretly.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Commented yesterday on a different thread about the lack of choice in our politics, that all we have is a choice between the right and the far right but then watched this video. If what this guy is saying is true with regard to citizen assemblies, UK politics is about to be given the biggest shake up ever.

I'm no political academic but isn't this what socialism is all about. I thought in some respects that Starmer was on the same ground as theresa may and kenny clark but then he comes up with this. Might have to re think my views. Bonkers this country right now!

While I agree that local stakeholders should generally decide on local issues, the notion that average citizens should be those stakeholders is bizarre. If I was on one I'd have no qualification whatsoever to pontificate over the education system, local policing, public transport, and so on, yet I'd seemingly be in a position where I'd be expected to do just that.

The irony is that Thatcher's wildly misrepresented "no such thing as society" speech made much the same point. People undoubtedly have the best knowledge possible about their own lives so should have as much agency over their own lives as possible. They might also have a decent knowledge of those closest to them. What they usually lack completely is any knowledge of those farthest away.

Heaven knows, Brexit showed us that it's far better to have a good decision than a democratic one.

 

[mightymoyes]

While I agree that local stakeholders should generally decide on local issues, the notion that average citizens should be those stakeholders is bizarre. If I was on one I'd have no qualification whatsoever to pontificate over the education system, local policing, public transport, and so on, yet I'd seemingly be in a position where I'd be expected to do just that.

The irony is that Thatcher's wildly misrepresented "no such thing as society" speech made much the same point. People undoubtedly have the best knowledge possible about their own lives so should have as much agency over their own lives as possible. They might also have a decent knowledge of those closest to them. What they usually lack completely is any knowledge of those farthest away.

Heaven knows, Brexit showed us that it's far better to have a good decision than a democratic one.

like an average MP then

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

While I agree that local stakeholders should generally decide on local issues, the notion that average citizens should be those stakeholders is bizarre. If I was on one I'd have no qualification whatsoever to pontificate over the education system, local policing, public transport, and so on, yet I'd seemingly be in a position where I'd be expected to do just that.

The irony is that Thatcher's wildly misrepresented "no such thing as society" speech made much the same point. People undoubtedly have the best knowledge possible about their own lives so should have as much agency over their own lives as possible. They might also have a decent knowledge of those closest to them. What they usually lack completely is any knowledge of those farthest away.

Heaven knows, Brexit showed us that it's far better to have a good decision than a democratic one.

We would need to ensure that it was an informed choice and not manipulated like the Brexit propoganda, that is for sure.

 

[Billy Dean]

Abstaining again

 

[Tin-Tin]

Abstaining again

Risky

 

[Xizor]

Lammy was all over the place trying to describe Labour's position earlier.

And wouldn't engage with the obvious question:

"How will Labour vote if the amendment isn't selected?"

"Well that's for the Speaker to decide, whether to select it" - that wasn't the question, idiot.

 

[tsubaki]

Abstaining again

these are the elite political minds of our times

 

[Agent Blue]

While I agree that local stakeholders should generally decide on local issues, the notion that average citizens should be those stakeholders is bizarre. If I was on one I'd have no qualification whatsoever to pontificate over the education system, local policing, public transport, and so on, yet I'd seemingly be in a position where I'd be expected to do just that.

The irony is that Thatcher's wildly misrepresented "no such thing as society" speech made much the same point. People undoubtedly have the best knowledge possible about their own lives so should have as much agency over their own lives as possible. They might also have a decent knowledge of those closest to them. What they usually lack completely is any knowledge of those farthest away.

Heaven knows, Brexit showed us that it's far better to have a good decision than a democratic one.

I can see the point you are making that Joe public might not be qualified to make important decisions but have to say that I dont think it is bizarre at all. If decisions are needed for policing have officers on the assembly if decisions are needed on education have teachers, on health have doctors, nurses, consultants to advise the other members.

I think its a fantastic idea because it makes it a lot more difficult for lobbyists to affect decisions that could have a profound effect on society. I remember seeing an American comedian a while back making jokes about his mate and how he always managed to get people to do what he wanted. He ended the joke saying something like '[Poor language removed], this guy could even sell healthcare to the Brits'. I would argue that we are in the situation we are, not directly because of the Conservative Party but because of lobbyists and large amounts of vulgar money. Even the King is not averse to suitcases full of cash.

Brexit was an enigma and common sense or democracy didnt really have much to do with the decision to leave. I voted to remain but almost voted to leave because I thought that a serving British Prime Minister couldnt possibly write a profound slogan on the side of a big red bus, then drive it round the country and later on actually cut spending on health.

Our country desparately needs change. I'm nearly 60 and never thought I would see the day when if you dialled 999 for an ambulance or police that they might or might not actually turn up, and I think that citizen assemblies might actually prevent this situation occurring. Lets face it, I dont think it could be any worse than what we have now

 

[Daveysgingerlovechild]

It isn't what socialism is all about. The people who will organize these things (the assemblies) will organize them in such a way to get what they want out of them; that is what they know and what they are doing already in Labour.

The only way you would ever be able to do it fairly is to do something similar to the jury system - for arguments sake give every person on the electoral register (so every British citizen above voting age) a number between 1 and 999. An issue would arise and an assembly called, they'd pick a number from 1 to 999 and everyone with that number would be part of the assembly and assess, investigate and decide.

I'd legit trust my dog more than a lot of the British public.

Fair? Yes. Effective? Woof.

 

[Agent Blue]

It isn't what socialism is all about. The people who will organize these things (the assemblies) will organize them in such a way to get what they want out of them; that is what they know and what they are doing already in Labour.

The only way you would ever be able to do it fairly is to do something similar to the jury system - for arguments sake give every person on the electoral register (so every British citizen above voting age) a number between 1 and 999. An issue would arise and an assembly called, they'd pick a number from 1 to 999 and everyone with that number would be part of the assembly and assess, investigate and decide.

Flippin eck heres me thinking we might find a political utopia where the people might actually have a say on how the country is run and now my dreams are crashing and burning faster than a Russian jet in Ukraine.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I can see the point you are making that Joe public might not be qualified to make important decisions but have to say that I dont think it is bizarre at all. If decisions are needed for policing have officers on the assembly if decisions are needed on education have teachers, on health have doctors, nurses, consultants to advise the other members.

I think its a fantastic idea because it makes it a lot more difficult for lobbyists to affect decisions that could have a profound effect on society. I remember seeing an American comedian a while back making jokes about his mate and how he always managed to get people to do what he wanted. He ended the joke saying something like '[Poor language removed], this guy could even sell healthcare to the Brits'. I would argue that we are in the situation we are, not directly because of the Conservative Party but because of lobbyists and large amounts of vulgar money. Even the King is not averse to suitcases full of cash.

Brexit was an enigma and common sense or democracy didnt really have much to do with the decision to leave. I voted to remain but almost voted to leave because I thought that a serving British Prime Minister couldnt possibly write a profound slogan on the side of a big red bus, then drive it round the country and later on actually cut spending on health.

Our country desparately needs change. I'm nearly 60 and never thought I would see the day when if you dialled 999 for an ambulance or police that they might or might not actually turn up, and I think that citizen assemblies might actually prevent this situation occurring. Lets face it, I dont think it could be any worse than what we have now

I suppose it depends both on the makeup of this "assembly", the information they're given, and the decisions they're being asked to make. I mean a bus driver might indeed have something useful to say about transport, but they're pretty unlikely to understand the budgetary restraints the system operates under or the social/economic factors that might underpin route planning. A nurse would be great at highlighting factors of their particular job, but would they have insights into the actual running of a hospital?

By and large, we have a civil service that is already fairly well equipped (or as equipped as it can be) to do things, so perhaps the bigger question is why do we continually put in their way ill-informed bumpkins?

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Switzerland is an amazing country and their system, though not quite the same, works well for them.

One of our major problems is our gutter press. We'd be in a much better shape if we could get a grip of it, IMO.