Current Affairs The Labour Party

[catcherintherye]

Not behind after a shambles of a government like this surely.

They look miles ahead in every poll I'm seeing mate. This will continue as well. And polls are currently under estimating Labour. Finally there is every chance Labour will radically improve it's performance through an electoral campaign as it did last time.

Most polls have Labour 1-5 points ahead. By the time polling is conducted after the last 7 days shambles I anticipate this will be 5--10 points. Throw in they are underestimating Labour by 5 points, and the chance of Labour to swing another 10+ through their campaigning and you can see Labour currently on course to a massive victory, possible one of their biggest ever. Lets hope the PLP don't sabotage it again.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

He hasn't sat back though. He has articulated a position on Brexit. You happen to have a different position to him which is fair enough.

There are limits as to what you can do practically in his position though. You are well aware of this and it seems opportunistic to attack him for not doing things it is not feasibly possible for him to.

He does not have the arithmetic to implement the change currently. If we have an election this situation may change. Hence why his logical call is to push for an election so he can implement his policy.

By their very nature, no opposition has the arithmetic to implement change, otherwise they'd be in government, yet opposition parties have managed to influence the major issues of their time regardless. I don't think Labour have done that at all, and have instead been relying on the sheer incompetence of the Tories. There's a reason why they aren't miles ahead in the polls, and it's because they haven't convinced a good number of people that they can lead the country.

 

[catcherintherye]

By their very nature, no opposition has the arithmetic to implement change, otherwise they'd be in government, yet opposition parties have managed to influence the major issues of their time regardless. I don't think Labour have done that at all, and have instead been relying on the sheer incompetence of the Tories. There's a reason why they aren't miles ahead in the polls, and it's because they haven't convinced a good number of people that they can lead the country.

Beyond supporting a call for a 2nd referendum what would you have liked to have seem them do? I understand the criticism of :"they should support a 2nd vote". I don't agree with it, but it's fair enough. It essentially saying someone has a different ideological standpoint to yourself.

The reason they are not miles ahead in the polls is more complex. They are, as it happens significantly ahead in the polls, and likely to score Labour biggest win since 2001 if some of them are to be believed (and 3rd biggest win since the 60's).

However it's clear there are two quite rigid distinct voting blocks. Many of the people in the tory 40% are people long alienated by Blair/Brown/Miliband who moved firstly to UKIP then back to the Tories. There will not be much movement in the polls until the nature of the departure is clear. It will then be very fluid in terms of polling.

I am nervous of using polls as a battering stick for Corbyn though. Polls told us he was the worst supported Labour candidate ever. The reality showed us he was Labour's most well loved leader in England and Wales since the days of Atlee (I believe he got more votes than any Lab leader outside of Blair in 97). He also presided over the biggest improvement of any Labour Leader. I prefer to stick to evaluating than the (often inaccurate) projections of mathmeticians working for polling companies.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well beyond ideology, there are a number of things that are just facts, and to a large extent, we are in this mess because for too long politicians have glossed over facts in favour of whatever allows them to score political points. So the EU would be bashed and blamed for things that are largely domestic problems. Migrants and the benefit they bring to the country were not trumpeted at every opportunity, thus allowing some foul views to fester. The integration of our economy with peers around the world was never suitably explained nor championed.

I don't feel the opposition front bench have done anything to improve on those things. They've stayed as quiet as possible because they know that their metropolitan voters think very differently to their rural voters, and as they can't speak one message to both, they've largely kept quiet and let the Tories implode. It will probably work (for them), but it's not the kind of leadership I would expect, much less from someone who made his name as a man of conviction.

 

[edge]

They look miles ahead in every poll I'm seeing mate. This will continue as well. And polls are currently under estimating Labour. Finally there is every chance Labour will radically improve it's performance through an electoral campaign as it did last time.

Most polls have Labour 1-5 points ahead. By the time polling is conducted after the last 7 days shambles I anticipate this will be 5--10 points. Throw in they are underestimating Labour by 5 points, and the chance of Labour to swing another 10+ through their campaigning and you can see Labour currently on course to a massive victory, possible one of their biggest ever. Lets hope the PLP don't sabotage it again.

Hope it goes a lot better can't stand this lot In Government

 

[tsubaki]

Well beyond ideology, there are a number of things that are just facts, and to a large extent, we are in this mess because for too long politicians have glossed over facts in favour of whatever allows them to score political points. So the EU would be bashed and blamed for things that are largely domestic problems. Migrants and the benefit they bring to the country were not trumpeted at every opportunity, thus allowing some foul views to fester. The integration of our economy with peers around the world was never suitably explained nor championed.

I don't feel the opposition front bench have done anything to improve on those things. They've stayed as quiet as possible because they know that their metropolitan voters think very differently to their rural voters, and as they can't speak one message to both, they've largely kept quiet and let the Tories implode. It will probably work (for them), but it's not the kind of leadership I would expect, much less from someone who made his name as a man of conviction.

Bruce he was literally the only senior British political leader to actually say that most of what the EU was being blamed was down to our Governments policies.

 

[zzr45]

Or alternatively people want to respect a democratic, even if sometimes some of the reasons people voted for it were not from their own ideological standpoint and make the best of it by negotiating the most favourable conclusion possible given the situation we are in.

I'm also a tad confused as to why it is "sickening", "nasty" or "power hungry rats" to want a political party someone supports to be in power for a foreseeable period?

Surely the really power hungry people are those who feel they can overturn the biggest vote in the history of the country because they don't like the outcome? I would say that was more a sign of tyrannical behaviour?

No.

Just no.

Saying that wanting a second referendum is tyrannical is possibly the most absurd thing I’ve ever read in this part of the forum.

Jesus wept.

 

[catcherintherye]

No.

Just no.

Saying that wanting a second referendum is tyrannical is possibly the most absurd thing I’ve ever read in this part of the forum.

Jesus wept.

I didn't say that though did I? I questioned whether it was a more apt example of tyranny than wanting a party you vote for to win. Do you think that is the most "absurd thing you've ever read on this part of the forum"? Strange, it seems a legitimate question to me.

 

[catcherintherye]

Well beyond ideology, there are a number of things that are just facts, and to a large extent, we are in this mess because for too long politicians have glossed over facts in favour of whatever allows them to score political points. So the EU would be bashed and blamed for things that are largely domestic problems. Migrants and the benefit they bring to the country were not trumpeted at every opportunity, thus allowing some foul views to fester. The integration of our economy with peers around the world was never suitably explained nor championed.

I don't feel the opposition front bench have done anything to improve on those things. They've stayed as quiet as possible because they know that their metropolitan voters think very differently to their rural voters, and as they can't speak one message to both, they've largely kept quiet and let the Tories implode. It will probably work (for them), but it's not the kind of leadership I would expect, much less from someone who made his name as a man of conviction.

The issue is though Bruce, he's in a party full of PLP colleagues who wanted "control immigration" mugs and who have at every turn tried to limit his flexibility to operate on such questions. Both Blair, Brown and many other leading proponents for those sections of the party have repeatedly attacked migrants over the last 2 years.

On the flip side Corbyn has regularly spoke of the dangers of racism to communities. I probably agree he could and should have gone further but he is boxed in by his colleagues.

I'd also add, that in his time in office and his public positions on refugees/migrants (rather than his predecessors approach to demonise them) you have seen the public opinion turn far more favourably on migrants. Undoubtedly there's a lot of correlation not causation there but if your viewpoint is that Corbyn's fault in there last 2 years is not to speak up more against racism/anti-immigrant fervour I am not sure I can agree with that.

 

[Number_25]

I like you have no problems with a worker earning his worth,it's the hypocrisy I have the problem with.

I'm confused.

Nobody in Labour is suggesting that nobody should be paid less, we're just suggesting that the rich pay more tax.

 

[Number_25]

@Bruce Wayne, you really are a single issue guy aren't you?

 

[NilSatisOptimum]

Might I use the over-running engineering works being conducted by Network Rail that have resulted in all trains in/out of Waterloo this morning being cancelled to score political points about the horrors of nationalised rail entities?

For all you know they were held up by a privatised utility company, ya big populist ranter x

Add Network Rail to the long list of other public entities that have suffered 8 years of Tory austerity ideology, it's in the same boat as NHS Social Care Education etc.

 

[orchard]

Add Network Rail to the long list of other public entities that have suffered 8 years of Tory austerity ideology, it's in the same boat as NHS Social Care Education etc.

I don't think it's just that though mate, it seems to also be the way that they no longer specialise and have to sub out technical stuff to corp's rather than develop their own expertise.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The issue is though Bruce, he's in a party full of PLP colleagues who wanted "control immigration" mugs and who have at every turn tried to limit his flexibility to operate on such questions. Both Blair, Brown and many other leading proponents for those sections of the party have repeatedly attacked migrants over the last 2 years.

On the flip side Corbyn has regularly spoke of the dangers of racism to communities. I probably agree he could and should have gone further but he is boxed in by his colleagues.

I'd also add, that in his time in office and his public positions on refugees/migrants (rather than his predecessors approach to demonise them) you have seen the public opinion turn far more favourably on migrants. Undoubtedly there's a lot of correlation not causation there but if your viewpoint is that Corbyn's fault in there last 2 years is not to speak up more against racism/anti-immigrant fervour I am not sure I can agree with that.

I don't doubt that he may end up winning more votes than he does lose them due to folks with different priorities to me. Just saying that he hasn't convinced me. Now, he may not really want to, but my vote is largely up for grabs in any election...

@Bruce Wayne, you really are a single issue guy aren't you?

What might that issue be?

Add Network Rail to the long list of other public entities that have suffered 8 years of Tory austerity ideology, it's in the same boat as NHS Social Care Education etc.

Ah, good effort. Good ol' austerity being the catch all. Chapeau.

 

[tsubaki]

I don't think it's just that though mate, it seems to also be the way that they no longer specialise and have to sub out technical stuff to corp's rather than develop their own expertise.

That and be made to sell off their assets; the sale of the arches was deeply suspicious given that they made money even at the low rates they were charging (and will make loads more now).