Current Affairs The Far Left

[Bruce Wayne]

Why do we have to move to Scandinavia first, I would suggest the free marketeers the libertarians should go and live in Parkistan, in particular the parts that are stateless and taxless!

How do you know if something is better without experiencing it? There's an unfortunate trend of the failures of socialism/communism being waved away because it wasn't done right or something. McDonnell appears to be doing the same with Venuzuela at the moment. If that had happened once or twice you could perhaps accept it, but it has failed repeatedly and consistently.

It's quite telling that Cuba, Venuzuela, China et al all have negative net migration. In other words, when given the choice, more people leave those countries than go there. Perhaps not a ringing endorsement, and that has been the case with all nations that have removed the market and gone full-communism.

 

[Number_25]

How do you know if something is better without experiencing it? There's an unfortunate trend of the failures of socialism/communism being waved away because it wasn't done right or something. McDonnell appears to be doing the same with Venuzuela at the moment. If that had happened once or twice you could perhaps accept it, but it has failed repeatedly and consistently.

It's quite telling that Cuba, Venuzuela, China et al all have negative net migration. In other words, when given the choice, more people leave those countries than go there. Perhaps not a ringing endorsement, and that has been the case with all nations that have removed the market and gone full-communism.

In fairness, Maudro isn't exactly running the country with the same sort of focus on the democratic process that Chavez did. That being said Maudro apologists are a thing, and I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting otherwise.

You also shouldn't cast wide ascertains that all socialist societies fail, as that isn't true. There has been a number of instances in which socialist-led governments have come to power and of whom have focused primarily on the extension of democracy - countries that were far more open, fair and progressive that what preceded them.

I am unafraid to state that I am a socialist, but I'm also a democrat. For us to move toward a socialist state, we need to have a clear democratic mandate in order to do so. I believe that this is the current mood within the leadership of the Labour Party, and any attempt to obfuscate it as anything else is wrong.

 

[peteblue]

In fairness, Maudro isn't exactly running the country with the same sort of focus on the democratic process that Chavez did. That being said Maudro apologists are a thing, and I'm not going to insult your intelligence by suggesting otherwise.

You also shouldn't cast wide ascertains that all socialist societies fail, as that isn't true. There has been a number of instances in which socialist-led governments have come to power and of whom have focused primarily on the extension of democracy - countries that were far more open, fair and progressive that what preceded them.

I am unafraid to state that I am a socialist, but I'm also a democrat. For us to move toward a socialist state, we need to have a clear democratic mandate in order to do so. I believe that this is the current mood within the leadership of the Labour Party, and any attempt to obfuscate it as anything else is wrong.

Name three successful socialist countries......

 

[tsubaki]

Name three successful socialist countries......

All countries are socialist, pete.

 

[peteblue]

All countries are socialist, pete.

Nicely sidestepped.......

 

[Socrates]

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland are all fairly socialist.

 

[Socrates]

And look up the concept of mitbestimmung in Germany.

 

[Socrates]

And one more for good measure.

Check out Mondragon in Spain.

 

[Ruairi77]

Name three successful socialist countries......

The uk has
Socialized health care
Socialized education
Socialized infrastructure
Socialized defense
Socialized welfare
Socialized business incentives
Socialized arts and culture
Socialized heritage
I could go on....

Oh, Norway and Sweden too

 

[JammyP]

Name three successful socialist countries......

Also depends on your definition of success. At the extremes, the USSR was pretty good at feeding everyone, even if it was cabbage for weeks, then potatoes. Now Russia has billionaires and beggars. Which was more "successful"?

 

[Hibbo]

The uk has
Socialized health care
Socialized education
Socialized infrastructure
Socialized defense
Socialized welfare
Socialized business incentives
Socialized arts and culture
Socialized heritage
I could go on....

Oh, Norway and Sweden too

Successful..

 

[Ruairi77]

Successful..

Ok, I’ll switch to China

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland are all fairly socialist.

I often find it a bit confusing why Sweden et al are used as exemplars of 'socialism'. They have an extensive free school system, for instance, which was widely cited by Michael Gove to support the UK experiment in that direction. Also, the private and voluntary sectors provide a large chunk of Swedish healthcare. The general ethos seems to be that the state will foot the bill, but they are flexible with regards to who provides the service.

That's certainly not something I can see Corbyn signing up to, and is an awfully long way from the 'socialism is the intermediary step in the transition from capitalism to communism' that Marx espoused.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The uk has
Socialized health care
Socialized education
Socialized infrastructure
Socialized defense
Socialized welfare
Socialized business incentives
Socialized arts and culture
Socialized heritage
I could go on....

Oh, Norway and Sweden too

"a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

That to me suggests that not only should all of the things you mention above be socialised (so no private education and healthcare, no charities providing welfare etc.), but all means of production should be socialised. Every last bit. Or have I misunderstood socialism to really be about cherry picking bits that are suitable and glossing over everything else because, lets face it, all of the things you mention above exist in 'neo liberal' countries that are so despised by the far left.

 

[peteblue]

I often find it a bit confusing why Sweden et al are used as exemplars of 'socialism'. They have an extensive free school system, for instance, which was widely cited by Michael Gove to support the UK experiment in that direction. Also, the private and voluntary sectors provide a large chunk of Swedish healthcare. The general ethos seems to be that the state will foot the bill, but they are flexible with regards to who provides the service.

That's certainly not something I can see Corbyn signing up to, and is an awfully long way from the 'socialism is the intermediary step in the transition from capitalism to communism' that Marx espoused.

Socialists say “let’s be like Sweden and Norway”, countries who are not of the socialism of which they want, when the reality of socialism is Venezuela.....Socialists always decry the wealth gap, yet Russia and China are showing us just how big the wealth gap between the population can really be. Socialism is mainly about power to control the populace and to keep those currently in power in situ for as long as they can.........