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[Bruce Wayne]

I don't think you can put something in quotes that I didn't actually say for a start and I'm not whinging, I just think your idea is not something that has been robustly proven to work on the world stage.

The examples you have given are not examples of a major first world countries who have open unlimited immigration without bias which is what you are advocating. No country has decided this is a good idea.

I'm not particularly wanting to debate it further, you're entrenched in your views and I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm sure if your policy was put to a vote in the UK there would be little support for it across the political spectrum though and no matter why you choose to believe their opinion is influenced it would still be the will of the people.

I do love that wonderful phrase. I do agree with you that I very much doubt people would vote for such a measure as politicians have been using foreigners to scaremonger for generations. This Harvard study is focused on the US but I've seen various similar studies in the UK and elsewhere, and it clearly shows that people's perceptions of immigrants, whether in terms of their number, their skill level, their faith, and so on, is usually well off what the reality is.

http://papers.nber.org/tmp/31804-w24733.pdf

So you'll have to forgive me for not blindly following a largely ill-informed plebiscite on the matter.

Incidentally, a few years ago Gallup did an enormous survey and found that around 750 million people, or less than 10% of the global population, would like to live in another country.

More Than 750 Million Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

Fifteen percent of the world's adults -- or more than 750 million people -- say they would like to move to another country if they had the opportunity. This is up from previous years, but still shy of the record high of 16% set between 2007 and 2009.

news.gallup.com

Obviously there is an inevitable difference between those who say they'd like to and those that actually would if the opportunity arose, but it's still perhaps a reasonable benchmark.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I do love that wonderful phrase. I do agree with you that I very much doubt people would vote for such a measure as politicians have been using foreigners to scaremonger for generations. This Harvard study is focused on the US but I've seen various similar studies in the UK and elsewhere, and it clearly shows that people's perceptions of immigrants, whether in terms of their number, their skill level, their faith, and so on, is usually well off what the reality is.

http://papers.nber.org/tmp/31804-w24733.pdf

So you'll have to forgive me for not blindly following a largely ill-informed plebiscite on the matter.

Incidentally, a few years ago Gallup did an enormous survey and found that around 750 million people, or less than 10% of the global population, would like to live in another country.

More Than 750 Million Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

Fifteen percent of the world's adults -- or more than 750 million people -- say they would like to move to another country if they had the opportunity. This is up from previous years, but still shy of the record high of 16% set between 2007 and 2009.

news.gallup.com

Obviously there is an inevitable difference between those who say they'd like to and those that actually would if the opportunity arose, but it's still perhaps a reasonable benchmark.

I wouldn't suggest you blindly follow anyone however if you go around condescendingly labelling the general public ill informed or falsifying quotations as you did with me I'd suggest you won't have many people following you either.

Bottom line, there is no country who thinks that your policy for unlimited and unbiased immigration is a good idea. Post all the studies and YouTube videos you want and it won't change that fact. A trillion dollar boost that every single country is too scared to pick up? Seems like there's a catch somewhere.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I wouldn't suggest you blindly follow anyone however if you go around condescendingly labelling the general public ill informed or falsifying quotations as you did with me I'd suggest you won't have many people following you either.

Bottom line, there is no country who thinks that your policy for unlimited and unbiased immigration is a good idea. Post all the studies and YouTube videos you want and it won't change that fact. A trillion dollar boost that every single country is too scared to pick up? Seems like there's a catch somewhere.

And I've given the reason why I believe that to be so. Incidentally, this isn't "my" policy. I'm far from the only person who thinks this is a good idea.

A world of free movement would be $78 trillion richer

Yes, it would be disruptive. But the potential gains are so vast that objectors could be bribed to let it happen

www.economist.com

It's perhaps also worth pointing out that while open borders are not the reality, there are numerous studies into the impact of migration more generally, and pretty much every one of those studies suggests that it is good for both the individuals and the host country.

As for the knowledge of the public, once again, I have provided studies that clearly show that people have very poor knowledge when it comes to migrants in their country and/or community. What would you call it? It's not intended to be condescending, but we wouldn't expect people who can barely recite their times table deciding economic policy so why would we bow down to people who have misguided perceptions of immigration when it comes to immigration policy?

Similarly, when you said the below, what would you call it if it's not alluding to hordes of people turning up at the border?

Bit of a difference between 27 EU countries and 195 countries in the world.

And no it's not where in the world they come from, it's a question of numbers.

Saying to everyone in the whole world, get a ticket and come to Britain just seems utterly insane.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

And I've given the reason why I believe that to be so. Incidentally, this isn't "my" policy. I'm far from the only person who thinks this is a good idea.

A world of free movement would be $78 trillion richer

Yes, it would be disruptive. But the potential gains are so vast that objectors could be bribed to let it happen

www.economist.com

It's perhaps also worth pointing out that while open borders are not the reality, there are numerous studies into the impact of migration more generally, and pretty much every one of those studies suggests that it is good for both the individuals and the host country.

As for the knowledge of the public, once again, I have provided studies that clearly show that people have very poor knowledge when it comes to migrants in their country and/or community. What would you call it? It's not intended to be condescending, but we wouldn't expect people who can barely recite their times table deciding economic policy so why would we bow down to people who have misguided perceptions of immigration when it comes to immigration policy?

Similarly, when you said the below, what would you call it if it's not alluding to hordes of people turning up at the border?

I would say it is a response to your open borders suggestion and not what you quoted.

It's absolute basics, if you're going to put quotation marks around something then it supports a direct quote.

Fine, it's not your policy. It's also not the policy of any country either suggesting that there's not a single government who believes the benefits outweigh the negatives with such a plan.

Again, I'm pro-immigration. It's incredibly disappointing that unless actual unlimited and unbiased immigration is supported that other opinions are likened to Farage-esque. More than disappointing actually, it's shameful.

I'm done wasting my Saturday with this discussion, I just don't like you patrolling this thread with thinly veiled insinuations of racism to people who don't ascribe to your world view.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I would say it is a response to your open borders suggestion and not what you quoted.

It's absolute basics, if you're going to put quotation marks around something then it supports a direct quote.

Fine, it's not your policy. It's also not the policy of any country either suggesting that there's not a single government who believes the benefits outweigh the negatives with such a plan.

Again, I'm pro-immigration. It's incredibly disappointing that unless actual unlimited and unbiased immigration is supported that other opinions are likened to Farage-esque. More than disappointing actually, it's shameful.

I'm done wasting my Saturday with this discussion, I just don't like you patrolling this thread with thinly veiled insinuations of racism to people who don't ascribe to your world view.

I must say, it feels like you're massively over-exaggerating with this constant line. Farage's poster was undoubtedly racist in its intent and its messaging. All I said was that it's disappointing that your comment about inviting the whole world to come to Britain was using the same kind of gross exaggeration of the likely number of people coming to the UK under any kind of open border as Farage and other extremists. If you didn't want to have that association then you needed to use clearer language. Incidentally, "patrolling this thread" is extremely dramatic. I'm answering the questions that you've posted to me, and I'm attempting to do so with actual research rather than mere suggestion or personal opinion. If that's too much for you then perhaps its best that you bow out.

Well yes, it is utterly insane to think that. We're veering into Farage territory here with his absurdly racist poster about Turkish accession to the Union meaning that 84 million Turks are suddenly going to arrive at Dover. Perhaps a more current example would be the arrangement struck with Hong Kong recently, which allowed any Hong Kong citizen to move to the UK. If Asians weren't "good migrants" perhaps Farage would have whipped out his poster and scared people with thoughts of 2.9 million Hong Kongians turning up at Heathrow, but of course that hasn't happened because people don't generally go half way around the world on a wing and a prayer.

Bit of a difference between 27 EU countries and 195 countries in the world.

And no it's not where in the world they come from, it's a question of numbers.

Saying to everyone in the whole world, get a ticket and come to Britain just seems utterly insane.

 

[random]

Incidentally, a few years ago Gallup did an enormous survey and found that around 750 million people, or less than 10% of the global population, would like to live in another country.

More Than 750 Million Worldwide Would Migrate If They Could

Fifteen percent of the world's adults -- or more than 750 million people -- say they would like to move to another country if they had the opportunity. This is up from previous years, but still shy of the record high of 16% set between 2007 and 2009.

news.gallup.com

Obviously there is an inevitable difference between those who say they'd like to and those that actually would if the opportunity arose, but it's still perhaps a reasonable benchmark.

The Gallup link you posted states that 34 Million people would come to live in the UK if they could.

The current number of job vacancies in the UK is 1.3 million

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/january2022


I cannot see how those two set of figures in relation to each other lead to.... pretty much every one of those studies suggests that it is good for both the individuals and the host country.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The Gallup link you posted states that 34 Million people would come to live in the UK if they could.

The current number of job vacancies in the UK is 1.3 million

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentan...bulletins/jobsandvacanciesintheuk/january2022


I cannot see how those two set of figures in relation to each other lead to.... pretty much every one of those studies suggests that it is good for both the individuals and the host country.

I would date Natalie Portman if I could.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Bit of a difference between 27 EU countries and 195 countries in the world.

And no it's not where in the world they come from, it's a question of numbers.

Saying to everyone in the whole world, get a ticket and come to Britain just seems utterly insane.

Conversely, thinking everyone, given the option, would want to live in Britain is also insane.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Conversely, thinking everyone, given the option, would want to live in Britain is also insane.

Do you think there should be any limitations on immigration?

 

[Jebus_lives]

So why haven't any EU countries or any other major first world country adopted this policy?

Surely Farage can't be influencing policy across the continent?

Unfortunately good policy is not always good politics.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Do you think there should be any limitations on immigration?

Pragmatically yes. In the current world we live there is a need to have some limits of immigration (public health or security reasons) but generally I think the more open borders countries can have the better.

It may not happen in my lifetime but I think ultimately the notion of borders will reduce and reduce in years to come.

Let's imagine for a moment a rise in sea levels across the world, some areas in the UK are predicted to be "under water" by 2050...would the UK expect a closed border world at that point?

*Edit: I'm not exactly sure what the relevance of your question was to my initial comment was.

 

[JimmyJeffers]

Hello everyone!

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Pragmatically yes. In the current world we live there is a need to have some limits of immigration (public health or security reasons) but generally I think the more open borders countries can have the better.

It may not happen in my lifetime but I think ultimately the notion of borders will reduce and reduce in years to come.

Let's imagine for a moment a rise in sea levels across the world, some areas in the UK are predicted to be "under water" by 2050...would the UK expect a closed border world at that point?

Pragmatically yes is my opinion also.

 

[Jebus_lives]

Hello everyone!

Evening

 

[random]

I would date Natalie Portman if I could.

I guess that is in response to the 34 Million figure.

you posted the link to it and said it was perhaps a reasonable benchmark Bruce.