Current Affairs The Conservative Party

[Bruce Wayne]

almost ?

The only thing this lot are good at is swerving responsibility

I suppose the point is that it's not just a Tory thing (although god knows they're awful enough). This random search from 20 years ago also spoke about huge numbers of unfilled vacancies. I just don't know where the notion comes from that the government are any good at this stuff.

Up to a fifth of emergency nursing jobs unfilled

Up to a fifth of nursing posts in accident and emergency departments are vacant, a survey of 20 hospital trusts revealed yesterday.

www.theguardian.com

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Well yes, it is utterly insane to think that. We're veering into Farage territory here with his absurdly racist poster about Turkish accession to the Union meaning that 84 million Turks are suddenly going to arrive at Dover. Perhaps a more current example would be the arrangement struck with Hong Kong recently, which allowed any Hong Kong citizen to move to the UK. If Asians weren't "good migrants" perhaps Farage would have whipped out his poster and scared people with thoughts of 2.9 million Hong Kongians turning up at Heathrow, but of course that hasn't happened because people don't generally go half way around the world on a wing and a prayer.

Well no it's not Farage territory and I don't appreciate the implication.

If it's such a good idea to have open world borders and it worked so well in the EU can you explain why not one EU country has adopted this policy?

Trying to insinuate people have racist views when they are actually pro immigration but are asking questions about their concerns is one of the main reasons Brexit came about unfortunately.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Well no it's not Farage territory and I don't appreciate the implication.

If it's such a good idea to have open world borders and it worked so well in the EU can you explain why not one EU country has adopted this policy?

Trying to insinuate people have racist views when they are actually pro immigration but are asking questions about their concerns is one of the main reasons Brexit came about unfortunately.

I'm saying your remark about "the whole world coming here" is rather silly as that would never happen. If you really want to look at what things might have been like you just have to look at the UK pre 1905, as that was when a border control was introduced. Somehow we managed to survive perfectly fine without the whole world wanting to come here prior to that point.

Incidentally, I don't ever expect to see an open borders world as it's far too easy for politicians to play off the "fear of the other". Indeed, the majority of the world currently lives under "strongmen" leaders who play to this fear as a central part of their approach. I can't see that changing any time soon, but that doesn't make it right, either from a moral or a rational perspective.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I'm saying your remark about "the whole world coming here" is rather silly as that would never happen. If you really want to look at what things might have been like you just have to look at the UK pre 1905, as that was when a border control was introduced. Somehow we managed to survive perfectly fine without the whole world wanting to come here prior to that point.

It wasn't my intention to suggest the whole world would actually come here, just seems that without any sort of quota it would lead to the possibility of more than was needed to enter which would be detrimental rather than positive.

I don't really care where people come from or how many come as long as it either fulfills an existing need or stimulates growth.

I also don't think pre-1905 Britain is the best comparison either, the modern world is a lot smaller in terms of travel and accessibility.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

As an example, I gave Hong Kong earlier, and the number of people who took up the UK's offer is almost identical, as a percentage, to the number of EU citizens that live outside their homeland, even with the right to do so. Incidentally, that well known hell hole Ireland is far and away the nation with the biggest foreign population, with 20% of all people in the country born overseas, and 75% of that figure coming uncontrolled via the EU. How do they cope?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It wasn't my intention to suggest the whole world would actually come here, just seems that without any sort of quota it would lead to the possibility of more than was needed to enter which would be detrimental rather than positive.

I don't really care where people come from or how many come as long as it either fulfills an existing need or stimulates growth.

But that's the point, who on earth gets to decide the precise amount that is needed? Right now I could stick a job advert up on UpWork and get someone from Timbuktu doing the work virtually and the government wouldn't give the slightest toss. Should I want that person to physically come here to do the same job though, they'd have to decide whether that person was "needed". It's absurd. Almost as absurd as the thought that someone from Timbuktu would jump on a plane and fly half way around the world before hitting Rightmove and the Job Centre to try and find something to do. That's not how people think. It's not how you or I would think.

Thankfully we long since vanquished the notion of tractor quotas and centrally planned economies because Russia helpfully showed the world that it was ridiculous, and yet we still seem to cling to this notion that a centrally planned labour market is both plausible and sensible. It's not.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

But that's the point, who on earth gets to decide the precise amount that is needed? Right now I could stick a job advert up on UpWork and get someone from Timbuktu doing the work virtually and the government wouldn't give the slightest toss. Should I want that person to physically come here to do the same job though, they'd have to decide whether that person was "needed". It's absurd. Almost as absurd as the thought that someone from Timbuktu would jump on a plane and fly half way around the world before hitting Rightmove and the Job Centre to try and find something to do. That's not how people think. It's not how you or I would think.

Thankfully we long since vanquished the notion of tractor quotas and centrally planned economies because Russia helpfully showed the world that it was ridiculous, and yet we still seem to cling to this notion that a centrally planned labour market is both plausible and sensible. It's not.

So why haven't any EU countries or any other major first world country adopted this policy?

Surely Farage can't be influencing policy across the continent?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So why haven't any EU countries or any other major first world country adopted this policy?

Surely Farage can't be influencing policy across the continent?

I told you, the majority of the world live under authoritarian leaders, and the rest are unquestionably influenced by such figures. Think Macron and Le Pen, for instance.

It has been called a trillion dollar boost that we're too scared to pick up. What a shame.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I told you, the majority of the world live under authoritarian leaders, and the rest are unquestionably influenced by such figures. Think Macron and Le Pen, for instance.

It has been called a trillion dollar boost that we're too scared to pick up. What a shame.

So literally no country thinks it is a good idea but anyone who questions the policy is labelled a Farage sympathiser?

Seems rational.

 

[Spadge Vernacular]

Open borders does not feel like a sensible strategy in a vastly unequal world, but I hope that at some point in the future it will be the norm.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So literally no country thinks it is a good idea but anyone who questions the policy is labelled a Farage sympathiser?

Seems rational.

You're being silly now. There are sadly a lot of policies that are perfectly sensible but never get implemented due to their political nature. Land value taxes, for instance, are widely regarded as an excellent approach to tackling extraordinarily high property prices, but never get implemented due to the vested interests of existing property owners. Similarly, when the state pension was introduced in 1908, life expectancy was 40 for men but you had to be 70 to get the pension. This was changed to 65 in 1928, when life expectancy was about 55, and it didn't budge until 2020, when it rose to 66, at which point life expectancy was now comfortably over 80. So the pension age has risen 1 year in response to a growth in life expectancy of about 30 years. It's illogical, and yet any attempt to change that gets rapidly beaten down by a portion of the electorate that vote in huge numbers.

Immigration is similar I'm afraid. As I said, over half of the world live under autocratic leaders who place great emphasis on restoring their country to some preordained era of greatness. They also rail against the so-called metropolitan elites that do down the working classes and actively deride globalization (and globalists) as enemies of the people. I'm sure you can recognise some of the language and behaviour of Johnson here as he (and Brexit) have undoubtedly been influenced by the likes of Erdogan, Putin, Bolsonaro et al, just as Trump was. Similarly, Macron has to veer right in order to fight off Le Pen. This is why even though rejoining the EU would make logical sense, Starmer won't even entertain it, much less a liberalisation of border restrictions.

I'm under no illusions as to the realities of the world and don't expect to ever see open borders outside of its marginal implementation in the Schengen Zone (which, as you can perhaps imagine, I regard as an incredible political achievement), but that doesn't mean that I can't see the evidence that crosses my desk each week about the benefits of (more) migration and the tremendous waste our nativist approach to things creates.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

You're being silly now. There are sadly a lot of policies that are perfectly sensible but never get implemented due to their political nature. Land value taxes, for instance, are widely regarded as an excellent approach to tackling extraordinarily high property prices, but never get implemented due to the vested interests of existing property owners. Similarly, when the state pension was introduced in 1908, life expectancy was 40 for men but you had to be 70 to get the pension. This was changed to 65 in 1928, when life expectancy was about 55, and it didn't budge until 2020, when it rose to 66, at which point life expectancy was now comfortably over 80. So the pension age has risen 1 year in response to a growth in life expectancy of about 30 years. It's illogical, and yet any attempt to change that gets rapidly beaten down by a portion of the electorate that vote in huge numbers.

Immigration is similar I'm afraid. As I said, over half of the world live under autocratic leaders who place great emphasis on restoring their country to some preordained era of greatness. They also rail against the so-called metropolitan elites that do down the working classes and actively deride globalization (and globalists) as enemies of the people. I'm sure you can recognise some of the language and behaviour of Johnson here as he (and Brexit) have undoubtedly been influenced by the likes of Erdogan, Putin, Bolsonaro et al, just as Trump was. Similarly, Macron has to veer right in order to fight off Le Pen. This is why even though rejoining the EU would make logical sense, Starmer won't even entertain it, much less a liberalisation of border restrictions.

I'm under no illusions as to the realities of the world and don't expect to ever see open borders outside of its marginal implementation in the Schengen Zone (which, as you can perhaps imagine, I regard as an incredible political achievement), but that doesn't mean that I can't see the evidence that crosses my desk each week about the benefits of (more) migration and the tremendous waste our nativist approach to things creates.

What I see is you like a red rag to a bull inferring racism from people having justified concerns about an untested completely hypothetical idea for immigration policy.

It's quite frankly unacceptable and as I've said before one of the main reasons that large numbers of the population went towards Brexit. When you have reasonable concerns but are called racist instead of feeling heard and being given positive evidence of immigration benefits you are quite likely to feel disenfranchised and feel the opposition best represent you.

I'm not sure this is even worth debating. As you've admitted yourself no country in the developed world is willing to test your policy. Whether it follows that every country is as racist as UK for not adopting the policy you can decide for yourself.

I'm pro-Europe and I'm pro-immigration but I must say I'm not a fan of how people with different views get shouted down on here.

Unfortunately this forum is an example of what is happening in politics and with the Left. You don't win hearts and minds and you don't win votes by trying to shame people by calling them racist and insulting their intelligence.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

What I see is you like a red rag to a bull inferring racism from people having justified concerns about an untested completely hypothetical idea for immigration policy.

It's quite frankly unacceptable and as I've said before one of the main reasons that large numbers of the population went towards Brexit. When you have reasonable concerns but are called racist instead of feeling heard and being given positive evidence of immigration benefits you are quite likely to feel disenfranchised and feel the opposition best represent you.

I'm not sure this is even worth debating. As you've admitted yourself no country in the developed world is willing to test your policy. Whether it follows that every country is as racist as UK for not adopting the policy you can decide for yourself.

I'm pro-Europe and I'm pro-immigration but I must say I'm not a fan of how people with different views get shouted down on here.

Unfortunately this forum is an example of what is happening in politics and with the Left. You don't win hearts and minds and you don't win votes by trying to shame people by calling them racist and insulting their intelligence.

I didn't imply you were racist, I said that your assertion that "the whole world will come here" is something Farage used with his vile "breaking point" poster and his comments about Turkish ascension to the Union. I've said many times how silly this line of thinking is, and used both migration across the borderless EU and when the UK recently opened its borders to citizens of Hong Kong to provide evidence of the small numbers that actually choose to move. It's a shame you're choosing to winge rather than actually provide evidence of your own, as all you've done to date is make unfounded statements that migration "must" be controlled for no apparent reason other than you believe it to be so. I'd be only too happy to have a sensible debate on this but you need to bring something to the table first.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

For reference. This was standard UKIP rhetoric in the period around the referendum where they used a frankly nonsensical claim of 15 million Turks leaving the country should they join the EU, which is nearly 20% of the entire population. So yes, you'll have to forgive me if I find repeating such concerns to be out of the UKIP playbook of scaremongering on a mass scale and not born out by any evidence at all. Poland is perhaps the country with the biggest diaspora, and around 5% of its population left for other EU countries in the entire period after their membership in 2004.

 

[Diogenes the Cynic]

I didn't imply you were racist, I said that your assertion that "the whole world will come here" is something Farage used with his vile "breaking point" poster and his comments about Turkish ascension to the Union. I've said many times how silly this line of thinking is, and used both migration across the borderless EU and when the UK recently opened its borders to citizens of Hong Kong to provide evidence of the small numbers that actually choose to move. It's a shame you're choosing to winge rather than actually provide evidence of your own, as all you've done to date is make unfounded statements that migration "must" be controlled for no apparent reason other than you believe it to be so. I'd be only too happy to have a sensible debate on this but you need to bring something to the table first.

I don't think you can put something in quotes that I didn't actually say for a start and I'm not whinging, I just think your idea is not something that has been robustly proven to work on the world stage.

The examples you have given are not examples of a major first world countries who have open unlimited immigration without bias which is what you are advocating. No country has decided this is a good idea.

I'm not particularly wanting to debate it further, you're entrenched in your views and I'm not trying to change your opinion. I'm sure if your policy was put to a vote in the UK there would be little support for it across the political spectrum though and no matter why you choose to believe their opinion is influenced it would still be the will of the people.