Current Affairs The Conservative Party

[Bruce Wayne]

I think activists on the ground are different from those at the top. The people leading the conversation ought to be aware. And May should not have signalled article 50 until she had unity within her party.

It is amazing, and something that has been raised in this thread numerous times, that even the principal architects of Brexit, people like Johnson and Davis, did so with no real prospectus or plan behind them. They entered their Brexit positions practically with a blank sheet of paper, which is staggering. Equally staggering of course that the government should offer a binary referendum with little real planning done for what should happen in the event of a leave vote.

 

[catcherintherye]

It is amazing, and something that has been raised in this thread numerous times, that even the principal architects of Brexit, people like Johnson and Davis, did so with no real prospectus or plan behind them. They entered their Brexit positions practically with a blank sheet of paper, which is staggering. Equally staggering of course that the government should offer a binary referendum with little real planning done for what should happen in the event of a leave vote.

I agree on the first point. Truly naive and cowardly behaviour to resign 2/3 of the way in.

On the 2nd what sort of referendum options would you have wanted?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I agree on the first point. Truly naive and cowardly behaviour to resign 2/3 of the way in.

On the 2nd what sort of referendum options would you have wanted?

I wouldn't ever advocate a referendum tbh as I don't think the majority of people have a clue what they're voting for. It's been shown numerous times that Britons have the lowest knowledge on the EU in the whole of Europe, so I don't honestly think asking 'the people' on something so momentous is a good idea at all.

 

[catcherintherye]

I wouldn't ever advocate a referendum tbh as I don't think the majority of people have a clue what they're voting for. It's been shown numerous times that Britons have the lowest knowledge on the EU in the whole of Europe, so I don't honestly think asking 'the people' on something so momentous is a good idea at all.

As I think I said a few pages back, I don't think the Tories ever intended too. It was a promise intended to be used as a stick to beat the weak Miliband government with. The electorate called their bluff and they have not as yet processed quite how to handle it.

Deep down they have wanted a leader to stand up and reverse the decision. None of them have the bottle to do it, despite their keen intentions too.

 

[summerisle]

I wouldn't ever advocate a referendum tbh as I don't think the majority of people have a clue what they're voting for. It's been shown numerous times that Britons have the lowest knowledge on the EU in the whole of Europe, so I don't honestly think asking 'the people' on something so momentous is a good idea at all.

So did David Davis, once.

 

[Old Blue 2]

Not if you're @Old Blue 2 . For him, it seems the case that you can campaign for something despite having given no thought as to how it could be implemented, as that's someone else's job. It's a logical humdinger I've never managed to get my head around.

To answer another one of your condescending posts directed at me (you need to grow up, mate!).

As you well know (but perhaps will still not aceept, or even understand) the Referendum asked the people of the UK to do one of three things: vote Remain; vote Leave; not vote at all (the democratic 'abstention').

Neither the people nor the campaigners on both sides had any executive power to implement anything. It was the remit of the Government of the day to implement the result.

What is happening now is the implementation phase. One can debate whether the terms associated with the implementation phase are good enough, acceptable, etc.. But, that is where we are presenly at.

Now, if you genuinely cannot see the difference between a campaign and vote on the one hand, and implementation by the Executive on the other, then that's your problem. The 'humdinger', as you call it, is with your inability to understand such simple processes, if that is indeed the case. If it is not the case, then I suggest you step away from the protection afforded you as a Moderator, and see how far you will get insulting ordinary members then. Basically, you are a disgrace to the Moderator community on this Forum with your constant attacks on me and @Joey66 in my opinion.

 

[Groucho]

Basically, you are a disgrace to the Moderator community

I have to disagree here - moderator or not, @Bruce Wayne is entitled to an opinion as well, and if it’s different to yours then that’s life.

I voted remain and would do so again - does that make me a disgrace too?

 

[Charlie Sweet]

For Christ's sake, a bloody monocle.

But Derek in Basildon swears blind that old JRM is the man to deliver on the vote of the common man!

To answer another one of your condescending posts directed at me (you need to grow up, mate!).

As you well know (but perhaps will still not aceept, or even understand) the Referendum asked the people of the UK to do one of three things: vote Remain; vote Leave; not vote at all (the democratic 'abstention').

Neither the people nor the campaigners on both sides had any executive power to implement anything. It was the remit of the Government of the day to implement the result.

What is happening now is the implementation phase. One can debate whether the terms associated with the implementation phase are good enough, acceptable, etc.. But, that is where we are presenly at.

Now, if you genuinely cannot see the difference between a campaign and vote on the one hand, and implementation by the Executive on the other, then that's your problem. The 'humdinger', as you call it, is with your inability to understand such simple processes, if that is indeed the case. If it is not the case, then I suggest you step away from the protection afforded you as a Moderator, and see how far you will get insulting ordinary members then. Basically, you are a disgrace to the Moderator community on this Forum with your constant attacks on me and @Joey66 in my opinion.

But if the campaign to win the referendum vote was founded on lies then surely that will always mean the government of the day cannot implement the decision (as it's impossible).

The Leave campaign very successfully persuaded people to vote Brexit in the belief that the NHS will be better off if we left the EU. But we won't be and nobody is out there now saying we will be for at least 10+ years.

That's just one of many. Others relate to immigration and trade to name but two.

 

[Old Blue 2]

I have to disagree here - moderator or not, @Bruce Wayne is entitled to an opinion as well, and if it’s different to yours then that’s life.

I voted remain and would do so again - does that make me a disgrace too?

I take exception to the way he lays into some people on here. I would respectfully request that you read his post and mine again...

 

[Old Blue 2]

But if the campaign to win the referendum vote was founded on lies then surely that will always mean the government of the day cannot implement the decision (as it's impossible).

The Leave campaign very successfully persuaded people to vote Brexit in the belief that the NHS will be better off if we left the EU. But we won't be and nobody is out there now saying we will be for at least 10+ years.

That's just one of many. Others relate to immigration and trade to name but two.

Ok, I'll answer this one for the Nth time...

Did not the Remain side tell lies also? Osbourne stating that there would be a swingeing budget that would hammer the ordinary people of the UK if the Leave vote won. Utter lies, and he was found out for what he truly was post-Referendum.
Mark Carney, the head honcho of the Bank of England telling us all that the economy would go down the pan and doom & gloom, etc..
Lies, mate. Lies, and they used their positions of authority to scare-monger the population to try to get the vote to go their way. Absolutely despicable creatures.
And the first lord of the Treasury, Cameron, having previously stated he would serve his full term, jumping ship after the result, having not made any preparations for the eventuality of a Leave win, leaving others to take the matter forward. An utter spineless coward, totally exposed as caring not one jot for the UK public because he did not get his own way. This is the person who SUPPOSEDLY represented us. He has been shown to be a total disgrace to the position he held.

And as I've posted before (and will get the usual gobeens posting telling me the Leave campaign 'promised'), the £350 million was an EQUIVALENT cost of building a new hospital. Neither campaign could promise anything, as they carried no Executive functions to do so. They were campaigns, and that was as far as their remit went. At the end of 23rd June 2016 their functions ceased to exist.

Nobody, but NOBODY, can predict the future, so the last sentence in your next-to-last paragraph is superfluous.

Oh and by the way, I'm still waiting for the Ruskies to contact me and influence me about the Referendum vote (as well as that Cambridge place)...

 

[Walken]

Ok, I'll answer this one for the Nth time...

Did not the Remain side tell lies also? Osbourne stating that there would be a swingeing budget that would hammer the ordinary people of the UK if the Leave vote won. Utter lies, and he was found out for what he truly was post-Referendum.
Mark Carney, the head honcho of the Bank of England telling us all that the economy would go down the pan and doom & gloom, etc..
Lies, mate. Lies, and they used their positions of authority to scare-monger the population to try to get the vote to go their way. Absolutely despicable creatures.
And the first lord of the Treasury, Cameron, having previously stated he would serve his full term, jumping ship after the result, having not made any preparations for the eventuality of a Leave win, leaving others to take the matter forward. An utter spineless coward, totally exposed as caring not one jot for the UK public because he did not get his own way. This is the person who SUPPOSEDLY represented us. He has been shown to be a total disgrace to the position he held.

And as I've posted before (and will get the usual gobeens posting telling me the Leave campaign 'promised'), the £350 million was an EQUIVALENT cost of building a new hospital. Neither campaign could promise anything, as they carried no Executive functions to do so. They were campaigns, and that was as far as their remit went. At the end of 23rd June 2016 their functions ceased to exist.

Nobody, but NOBODY, can predict the future, so the last sentence in your next-to-last paragraph is superfluous.

Oh and by the way, I'm still waiting for the Ruskies to contact me and influence me about the Referendum vote (as well as that Cambridge place)...

the remain campaign was out and out lies, just lies. The leave campaign was using equivalents, that seems to be a very disingenuous assessment based on sheer tribalism.My personal decision was not based in any way shape or form on either campaign, so I've no problem with criticizing either campaign, it would be fine for you to still want to leave and at the same time admit how nasty and dishonest the tone of the campaign was, ran by some truly insincere individuals

 

[summerisle]

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I take exception to the way he lays into some people on here. I would respectfully request that you read his post and mine again...

You're welcome to motion a vote of no confidence if you wish. As per traditional procedure, should 15% of the membership believe me a disgrace to the mod community then I will gladly hand in my ban hammer and special mug. You've got 2 already, so just another 5,645 to go. You'll have that by Christmas.

 

[Old Blue 2]

You're welcome to motion a vote of no confidence if you wish. As per traditional procedure, should 15% of the membership believe me a disgrace to the mod community then I will gladly hand in my ban hammer and special mug. You've got 2 already, so just another 5,645 to go. You'll have that by Christmas.

Doesn't need any %age Bruce. It's there for all to see by what you write...

 

[Old Blue 2]

the remain campaign was out and out lies, just lies. The leave campaign was using equivalents, that seems to be a very disingenuous assessment based on sheer tribalism.My personal decision was not based in any way shape or form on either campaign, so I've no problem with criticizing either campaign, it would be fine for you to still want to leave and at the same time admit how nasty and dishonest the tone of the campaign was, ran by some truly insincere individuals

I have said before, Walken, that both campaigns were disingenuous in several directions. I did the same as you state above in your third sentence - I considered everything and made my own mind up.

As far as voting for anything (Referendum or General Elections) I am my own person and make my own mind up, as I believe you are, and do. I freely admit to voting Labour all my life, but am not averse to criticising them - Blair showed himself up to be a total self-serving snake, and Gordon Brown had all the charisma of a paving slab.

I hope the above clarifies my position for you.