Current Affairs The "another stabbing in London" thread

[tsubaki]

Like someone else mentioned, it's not merely the fact that he didn't go and attack him, but rather that he locked the doors and quite quickly drove away.

He didn't, though. He saw Masood stab PC Palmer, saw Palmer and Masood go separately past his car, then Masood was shot. He left when one of the PCs from Parliament told him to. This theory that he locked the doors and just left is wrong.

 

[PhilM]

He left when one of the PCs from Parliament told him to. This theory that he locked the doors and just left is wrong.

If the reports are correct (from the inquest), he locked the car prior to Palmer being stabbed Masood was then shot by the CPO/PPO of the Defence Secretary.

Yes he left on the guidance of a PC, but that was his choice as a senior officer and not under the instruction of a CPO, all after the perpetrator had been downed.

It's not a theory: he didn't get out to help a colleague when they were in need and he drove off instead of taking control of the situation as his rank would demand.

You can talk about command structure, which I'm fully aware of, but I am also aware of the responsibilities of a senior officer. Can't you see how it looks?

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

No, he was in the Palace Yard and was starting to chasing other police officers. There were no members of the public in there who were being attacked there and then; indeed by the time Mackey became aware of the incident the PC had already been stabbed and it was seconds before Masood was shot.



He knew they were close but he did not know where they were, who they were or where they would be coming from - nor could they, given the structure of communications that existed at that time and everything else that was going on in front of them. All he (and the others) saw were the terrorists attacking people, and they made the right decision to step in.



Have you ever visited the Palace of Westminster? It has its own dedicated firearms officers, plus the protection officers with all the ministers attending Parliament, plus the armed officers at Downing Street, plus one of the biggest firearms unit bases in London within about a minutes blue light drive away. An attack on the gates would (and did) get an armed response in seconds, too late for PC Palmer (who was actually on the gate, and of course questions should be asked about why armed officers were not on the gate) but quickly enough to stop anyone getting further than Palace Yard. The acting Commissioner of the Met would be in a position to know this.



This is the thing - what you are saying is that Mackey should have distracted Masood from trying to stab other police officers by offering him a police officer (himself) to stab. There are times that might have been necessary, times that might be required - but this isnt one. Mackey would only have gotten himself injured or worse.

All said and done IMO he proper shat himself

 

[peteblue]

Pete - it isn't (look on Google Earth, or look under the head of the red arrow, to see the raised speedbump).

Now you know that I like you as a poster. But really, you are on the wrong side of this debate. He is a coward and his first and only thought was self preservation. He let down himself and he let down the Police force that he oversees, but worse, he let down the policeman that was killed, he did nothing, absolutely nothing. He is a desk bound careerist, who has forgotten why his job even exists. He will not be missed. I really do hope that he is stripped of his Knighthood and sacked. The message this would send to the public would be most reassuring.......

 

[tsubaki]

If the reports are correct (from the inquest), he locked the car prior to Palmer being stabbed Masood was then shot by the CPO/PPO of the Defence Secretary.

Yes he left on the guidance of a PC, but that was his choice as a senior officer and not under the instruction of a CPO, all after the perpetrator had been downed.

Those reports aren't correct, though.

For a start - take a look at this report, which is from an officer who was also on the gates. It is from the inquest last week (from here):

A police officer who tried to save PC Keith Palmer during the Westminster attack has told how Khalid Masood looked him “directly in the eye” during his rampage.

PC Nick Carlisle was one of the unarmed Metropolitan Police officers posted at gates outside the Houses of Parliament on 22 March last year.

He told inquests into the victims’ deaths that he was alerted to the attack on hearing a loud bang when Masood crashed his car into railings after fatally running over four victims on Westminster Bridge.

PC Carlisle heard a report of a possible explosion over his radio and could see the grey 4x4 smoking metres away.

Giving evidence at the Old Bailey, he described a crowd of people surging away from the bridge, shouting and screaming.

“A man wearing a suit in his 40s shouted ‘men with knife stabbing people, men with knives’,” the officer said.

“As soon as he said that I was drawn to the attacker just behind.

“He looked me directly in the eye. He was coming through a crowd of people. He was not interested in members of the public. He was coming to kill police officers.”

PC Carlisle said that as one of his colleagues reacted by shouting “shut the gate”, PC Palmer urged the crowd to “come in here”.

CCTV footage previously played to the court shows Masood running through the gate at speed and starting to stab PC Palmer – the first officer he reached – immediately.

PC Carlisle said he had backed away by about 10 metres when he turned to see the terrorist attacking his colleague.

“I ran forward intending to issue a rugby tackle, shoulder barge,” he said. “He came at me with knives up. I was very close.”

The distraction gave PC Palmer time to get up and run as PC Carlisle shouted for armed support, the inquest heard, but he collapsed metres away and died at the scene of his injuries.

PC Carlisle told how he saw close protection officers with handguns drawn approaching, adding: “I indicated the suspect, making it clear who the attacker was and pointing him out.”

After Masood was shot, the officer secured him in handcuffs, fearing he was a “jihadi-type” attacker who might be wearing a suicide vest.

He then saw PC Palmer on the ground surrounded by a “gaggle of people” and went to help.

Hugo Keith, a lawyer representing the Metropolitan Police told PC Carlisle: “You bravely attempted to go towards Masood and PC Palmer to try to disable Masood, but the reality was there was no time to stop him before he got to PC Palmer and once he turned towards you with his knives there was no time or ability to stop him after that.”

Lawyer Susannah Stevens thanked the officer for his bravery in trying to help on behalf of PC Palmer’s family.

This was always the problem with the argument attacking Mackey; this claim that he could have done something. PC Carlisle was there on the gates and he had no opportunity to stop Masood, no opportunity to prevent PC Palmer being murdered. All he could do was distract Masood and point him out to the armed cops who were there almost straight away.

As an aside, the article then goes on to mention what this debate should really be about (which is probably why so much effort has been put in to making the debate about something else):

She argued that the absence of armed police stationed at Carriage Gates contributed to the officer’s death as part of an inadequate security system.

Two marksmen were on patrol in New Palace Yard but had been near the site of the attack for just 14 out of the 108 minutes before the officer was attacked, the inquests heard.

“PC Palmer, an unarmed officer, should not have been stabbed to death inside the Palace of Westminster on 22 March last year without any adequate firearms protection,“ Ms Stevens said.

“If there had been firearms officers present at that time, in our submission, on the balance of probabilities they would have been able to prevent a loss of an opportunity of saving PC Palmer’s life.

“Or to put it another way, on the balance of probabilities, their absence contributed to PC Palmer’s death.”

Dominic Adamson, representing the PC Palmer’s widow Michelle, said there had been a systematic failure in security arrangements for New Palace Yard.

“The system for protecting unarmed officers at the gates of the Palace of Westminster had failed and had been failing for years,” he said.

“The problems were, in our submission, obvious and ought to have been identified by those in authorities at the Palace of Westminster.”

He told the coroner: “In my submission it is very clear that you can be satisfied that as a result of those failures the consequences for PC Palmer were that there was a substantial loss of the opportunities for him to be saved.”

The 48-year-old died at the scene, while 52-year-old Masood was pronounced dead in hospital after being shot twice in the chest.

As for he locked the car before Palmer was stabbed, that was (at least according to this report) not the case.

It's not a theory: he didn't get out to help a colleague when they were in need and he drove off instead of taking control of the situation as his rank would demand.

You can talk about command structure, which I'm fully aware of, but I am also aware of the responsibilities of a senior officer.

Without wanting to sound harsh, the responsibility of a senior officer - in his case the senior officer in London - is to be in command of London. As horrific as this was, there were more appropriate senior officers who are better trained than him to do that job, to be in charge of that scene. There were not more appropriate officers to do his job - and as an aside, if the Commissioner had been taken out then it would have made the jobs of those who had to cover for him a lot worse.

Can't you see how it looks?

When you edit away all the other stuff and make it look like Mackey could have done something but didn't, then yes it looks bad. Sadly we live in times where such things are all the rage.

 

[tsubaki]

Now you know that I like you as a poster. But really, you are on the wrong side of this debate. He is a coward and his first and only thought was self preservation. He let down himself and he let down the Police force that he oversees, but worse, he let down the policeman that was killed, he did nothing, absolutely nothing. He is a desk bound careerist, who has forgotten why his job even exists. He will not be missed. I really do hope that he is stripped of his Knighthood and sacked. The message this would send to the public would be most reassuring.......

You know you could just say "I am sorry, I did not realise there was a speedbump there that would have prevented Masood being run down"*

* which of course assumes that a car can accelerate to 30 mph plus in about five meters of space around a bend with barriers on each side anyway

 

[peteblue]

You know you could just say "I am sorry, I did not realise there was a speedbump there that would have prevented Masood being run down"*

* which of course assumes that a car can accelerate to 30 mph plus in about five meters of space

I tried to let you off the hook with your defence of this guy, but now you are just making yourself look really silly. Put down the keyboard, have a cup of tea. You are sounding more and more like Hull and his demented defence of Russia......

 

[tsubaki]

I tried to let you off the hook with your defence of this guy, but now you are just making yourself look really silly. Put down the keyboard, have a cup of tea. You are sounding more and more like Hull and his demented defence of Russia......

sorry, I should have mentioned you suggested ramming into a fence as well

 

[peteblue]

sorry, I should have mentioned you suggested ramming into a fence as well

I just hope that when you or one of yours really needs a Policeman, that you get one as courageous as the guy you are defending.......

 

[tsubaki]

I just hope that when you or one of yours really needs a Policeman, that you get one as courageous as the guy you are defending.......

well your lot have cut thousands of them anyway, so we might not get one at all

 

[peteblue]

well your lot have cut thousands of them anyway, so we might not get one at all

Dear me, is that it, is this what has become of your debate just because you initially called it completely the wrong way.......

 

[tsubaki]

Dear me, is that it, is this what has become of your debate just because you initially called it completely the wrong way.......

I am sorry to break the news to you, but the fact you have pronounced on a topic does not mean that everyone who disagrees is wrong. In fact in most cases the opposite is true.

 

[PhilM]

As for he locked the car before Palmer was stabbed, that was (at least according to this report) not the case.

As per his testimony at the inquest albeit slightly paraphrased:

I became aware of a large male, said “Oh my God he’s got a knife.” and my focus was on the butcher’s knife in his right hand.

I didn’t really know what was happening. Clearly the way that male came in was a clear threat.

I locked the car door, as we had no protective equipment in the car at all.

I could see PC Palmer appear to move backwards. Saw two stab attempts

As quickly as Masood attacked PC Palmer he was up and moving again”. He seemed absolutely focussed on ... attacking anyone who got in his way.

It felt like an awful long time.

 

[peteblue]

I am sorry to break the news to you, but the fact you have pronounced on a topic does not mean that everyone who disagrees is wrong. In fact in most cases the opposite is true.

No matter how you play this one, you are wrong and probably know it. Now it’s just a matter of how deep a hole you dig.....just like Hull did......

 

[PhilM]

Without wanting to sound harsh, the responsibility of a senior officer - in his case the senior officer in London - is to be in command of London. As horrific as this was, there were more appropriate senior officers who are better trained than him to do that job, to be in charge of that scene. There were not more appropriate officers to do his job - and as an aside, if the Commissioner had been taken out then it would have made the jobs of those who had to cover for him a lot worse.

I agree that his job was to command London, yet in that occasion it isn't unrealistic for him to quickly take charge of a dynamic situation - even in the short term.

I can think of personal examples of where the likes of Sir Oxford, Bettison, Hogan-Howe, Gallan, Murphy, Forester, Greenwell et al. have lead from the front.

I'm not saying they were all perfect, as they certainly had their faults, but you could trust them to stay in mire; perhaps, that's why I expect better from him.

While I totally agree with the central point of lack of protection for officers there, it does not excuse an individual officers actions, or lack of.

First and foremost he is a constable, as is everyone else who took the oath, and leadership doesn't negate your responsibilities. He could have done something...

... he did nothing. Did he check his officer was okay? Did he quickly liaise with the next senior officer? Did he ensure parliament was secure? Did he lead?