Current Affairs The "another stabbing in London" thread

[tsubaki]

Yeah he will slink away into the shadows with his pension intact, although I believe that his decision to do nothing will haunt him for the rest of his life. His decision still bafffles me and I have to draw a comparison to the terror attack at London Bridge station when 3 attackers were armed with knives and getting all stabby...however that time 2 brave PC's ran toward them and took them on (PC Wayne Marks, and PC Charlie Guenigault). One of them (Guenigault) was off duty at the time and had no PPE but he still ran toward 3 knifemen and got stuck in. PC marks was also unarmed and also was on net and he knew that armed response was close but he still took them on, again receiving multiple stab wounds.

Maybe these are the type of officers that should be selected to lead their respective police forces not people like Mackey.

I appreciate this is the link being made, but this was not like London Bridge. In that attack, those hero cops had to intervene to protect each other and members of the public because those three terrorists were actively attacking people. They did not know how close the armed officers were and had no option but to do something.

Mackey on the other hand knew armed officers would be there immediately and would be a lot better placed to deal with Masood than he was, and he was right - Masood was shot within seconds of stabbing the PC / entering the Palace Yard.

It was the right call to make and it prevented more people being injured or dying than actually happened. To repeat the question I posed earlier- what would Mackey getting out the car have actually achieved?

 

[PhilM]

I appreciate this is the link being made, but this was not like London Bridge. In that attack, those hero cops had to intervene to protect each other and members of the public because those three terrorists were actively attacking people. They did not know how close the armed officers were and had no option but to do something.

Mackey on the other hand knew armed officers would be there immediately and would be a lot better placed to deal with Masood than he was, and he was right - Masood was shot within seconds of stabbing the PC / entering the Palace Yard.

It was the right call to make and it prevented more people being injured or dying than actually happened. To repeat the question I posed earlier- what would Mackey getting out the car have actually achieved?

It's easy to say that with hindsight, yet it doesn't negate the issue that at the time he neglected to act where arguably he should have - the view of many cops.

In simple terms (not the best comparison), what if an officer didn't response to call but then claimed it was acceptable as it was a false alarm or others were nearby?

Would that not be derelction of duty as you failed to act as the values of the job require? I see it as, that in the cold light of day, he didn't do what he should have.

 

[Harryflashman]

I appreciate this is the link being made, but this was not like London Bridge. In that attack, those hero cops had to intervene to protect each other and members of the public because those three terrorists were actively attacking people. They did not know how close the armed officers were and had no option but to do something.

Mackey on the other hand knew armed officers would be there immediately and would be a lot better placed to deal with Masood than he was, and he was right - Masood was shot within seconds of stabbing the PC / entering the Palace Yard.

It was the right call to make and it prevented more people being injured or dying than actually happened. To repeat the question I posed earlier- what would Mackey getting out the car have actually achieved?

Serious point though mate it seems as if every single police officer with a declared opinion on this , of whatever rank , seems to think he was out of order .

Now me and you have differing opinions and others in this thread without police experience think this or that and I’m not saying whatever police or ex police say is automatically right but it’s hard to think they aren’t speaking from a position of authority when it comes to what he should have done isn’t it ?

 

[PhilM]

Serious point though mate it seems as if every single police officer with a declared opinion on this , of whatever rank , seems to think he was out of order .

I don't think they all do, including examples on here... if that makes sense. However, there are many (if not the majority) that do feel he didn't act accordingly.

 

[Harryflashman]

I don't think they all do including examples on here... if that makes sense. However, there are many (if not the majority) that do feel he didn't act accordingly.

Ah ok fair enough I’ll take that point .

Fair to say the weight of opinion I’ve encountered of police officers in the real , broadcast and social media world is heavily weighted against his inaction then .

 

[peteblue]

The police seem to have made their minds up......

 

[peteblue]

I appreciate this is the link being made, but this was not like London Bridge. In that attack, those hero cops had to intervene to protect each other and members of the public because those three terrorists were actively attacking people. They did not know how close the armed officers were and had no option but to do something.

Mackey on the other hand knew armed officers would be there immediately and would be a lot better placed to deal with Masood than he was, and he was right - Masood was shot within seconds of stabbing the PC / entering the Palace Yard.

It was the right call to make and it prevented more people being injured or dying than actually happened. To repeat the question I posed earlier- what would Mackey getting out the car have actually achieved?

How did he know that armed officers would be there. He said he didn’t have a radio. Your defence of him while admirable is really misplaced......

 

[peteblue]

This just gets worse. If this mock up is anything to go by, why didn’t he order the driver to run him over....

 

[Harryflashman]

This just gets worse. If this mock up is anything to go by, why didn’t he order the driver to run him over....

View attachment 50265

I notice that says “he was has told to stay locked in his car “ in that graphic . Given he was the acting commissioner of the met at the time I can only assume the hone secretary or perhaps his mum told him , otherwise I’m not sure anyone is in a position to tell him to do anything .

 

[peteblue]

I notice that says “he was has told to stay locked in his car “ in that graphic . Given he was the acting commissioner of the met at the time I can only assume the hone secretary or perhaps his mum told him , otherwise I’m not sure anyone is in a position to tell him to do anything .

Apparently he has changed his story a teeny bit, can’t imagine why......

 

[Mutzo Nutzo]

I appreciate this is the link being made, but this was not like London Bridge. In that attack, those hero cops had to intervene to protect each other and members of the public because those three terrorists were actively attacking people.

Well what was Masood doing then? Doing a bit of sightseeing? No he was running around like a lunatic trying to stab everyone.

They did not know how close the armed officers were and had no option but to do something.

In the case of the BTP copper (PC Marks) he was on duty, was on-net, had comms and knew AR was close, but he still got involved.

Mackey on the other hand knew armed officers would be there immediately and would be a lot better placed to deal with Masood than he was, and he was right - Masood was shot within seconds of stabbing the PC / entering the Palace Yard.

I guess this comes from his testimony? My response would be, well how did he know that AR were close? He didn't have a radio on him.

To repeat the question I posed earlier- what would Mackey getting out the car have actually achieved?

Could have done his duty - confronted the knifeman, distracted him.

 

[tsubaki]

Well what was Masood doing then? Doing a bit of sightseeing? No he was running around like a lunatic trying to stab everyone.

No, he was in the Palace Yard and was starting to chasing other police officers. There were no members of the public in there who were being attacked there and then; indeed by the time Mackey became aware of the incident the PC had already been stabbed and it was seconds before Masood was shot.

In the case of the BTP copper (PC Marks) he was on duty, was on-net, had comms and knew AR was close, but he still got involved.

He knew they were close but he did not know where they were, who they were or where they would be coming from - nor could they, given the structure of communications that existed at that time and everything else that was going on in front of them. All he (and the others) saw were the terrorists attacking people, and they made the right decision to step in.

I guess this comes from his testimony? My response would be, well how did he know that AR were close? He didn't have a radio on him.

Have you ever visited the Palace of Westminster? It has its own dedicated firearms officers, plus the protection officers with all the ministers attending Parliament, plus the armed officers at Downing Street, plus one of the biggest firearms unit bases in London within about a minutes blue light drive away. An attack on the gates would (and did) get an armed response in seconds, too late for PC Palmer (who was actually on the gate, and of course questions should be asked about why armed officers were not on the gate) but quickly enough to stop anyone getting further than Palace Yard. The acting Commissioner of the Met would be in a position to know this.

Could have done his duty - confronted the knifeman, distracted him.

This is the thing - what you are saying is that Mackey should have distracted Masood from trying to stab other police officers by offering him a police officer (himself) to stab. There are times that might have been necessary, times that might be required - but this isnt one. Mackey would only have gotten himself injured or worse.

 

[tsubaki]

It's easy to say that with hindsight, yet it doesn't negate the issue that at the time he neglected to act where arguably he should have - the view of many cops.

In simple terms (not the best comparison), what if an officer didn't response to call but then claimed it was acceptable as it was a false alarm or others were nearby?

Would that not be derelction of duty as you failed to act as the values of the job require? I see it as, that in the cold light of day, he didn't do what he should have.

If people do not do their job then they should be disciplined, though even then a distinction should be drawn between the types of people who just ignore things and go away (like the motorbike cop you mentioned, or the incidents you cite above) and those who freeze when faced with something horrific.

However I genuinely think this is neither of those; if Mackey absolutely knew that armed units were seconds away then not confronting him was the right thing to do.

 

[tsubaki]

This just gets worse. If this mock up is anything to go by, why didn’t he order the driver to run him over....

View attachment 50265

Pete - it isn't (look on Google Earth, or look under the head of the red arrow, to see the raised speedbump).

 

[PhilM]

No, he was in the Palace Yard and was starting to chasing other police officers. There were no members of the public in there who were being attacked there and then; indeed by the time Mackey became aware of the incident the PC had already been stabbed and it was seconds before Masood was shot.

While members of public were under direct act at the time, it is a clear fact that he was advancing down the slope towards the entrance to Westminster Hall.

There may have been civilian here - Mackey had two in his car - including children, who regularly visit parliament and cross the Yard, or a member of parliament.

Did he know the AR would react in time? Is it not true that since 2015 that they were on floating patrols? It's easy to talk with hindsight that he couldn't have acted.

However, at the time I do not feel that he could, with any degree of certainty, say that Masood wouldn't have been able to attack, injure or kill another individual.

Like someone else mentioned, it's not merely the fact that he didn't go and attack him, but rather that he locked the doors and quite quickly drove away.