Current Affairs The "another stabbing in London" thread

[PhilM]

As for "hundreds of cops who have been in much worse situations with much less backup" - we are here talking about a terrorist who had just ran over dozens of people and then murdered a cop, lets not pretend that there have been that many incidents that British cops (or any cops tbh) have had to face "much worse" than this. What happened that day was unprecedented in the UK (at that point) and had only been seen a couple of times in Europe.

I was compring it in the way of confronting an individual who had used a vehicle/knife to attack individuals, so yes I think there are many comparable instances.

With regards to comparable incident, I can think about the '81 riots facing petrol bombs, bricks, vehicles charging at you and scaffold poles made into spears.

I can think of confronting PIRA and UDR gunmen on the main land (that's not talked about much) or walking into pubs where serious criminals are all armed...

... with sawn off shot-guns, revolvers and submachine guns, all while you've got your trusty baton and in the middle of nowhere (near Ainsdale) out or radio range.

Walking into a pub when four men are trying to slash a man with broken bottles and glasses and there was no armour, spray or tasers. But you went in alone!

Like I said, perhaps it is a generational thing but I do feel he should have acted or taken command as, from experience, that was what was expected.

 

[tsubaki]

I was compring it in the way of confronting an individual who had used a vehicle/knife to attack individuals, so yes I think there are many comparable instances.

With regards to comparable incident, I can think about the '81 riots facing petrol bombs, bricks, vehicles charging at you and scaffold poles made into spears.

I can think of confronting PIRA and UDR gunmen on the main land (that's not talked about much) or walking into pubs where serious criminals are all armed...

... with sawn off shot-guns, revolvers and submachine guns, all while you've got your trusty baton and in the middle of nowhere (near Ainsdale) out or radio range.

Walking into a pub when four men are trying to slash a man with broken bottles and glasses and there was armour, spray or tasers. But you went in alone!

... and in how many of those incidents did you know that armed backup, that was vastly more capable of dealing with this than you are, was seconds away?

Would you still have gone in just to make a point?

 

[PhilM]

... and in how many of those incidents did you know that armed backup, that was vastly more capable of dealing with this than you are, was seconds away?

Would you still have gone in just to make a point?

It was instilled into that you were to act until back up arrived, or to act in case it didn't, to help remove the threat in order to protect life and property. Simple.

With regards to one situation, yes it may have been on its way but the threat to life was severe (or for them to evade the law) so action was promptly taken.

Talking theoretically, what if he had stabbed someone else (say a member of the public) before the PPO or FOs arrived and officers had stood and waited?

Would his actions and actions of others have be seen differently?

 

[roydo]

Talking theoretically, what if he had stabbed someone else (say a member of the public) before the PPO or FOs arrived and officers had stood and waited?

Would his actions and actions of others have be seen differently?

Fair point that. I guess its non police folk having a different opinion to (I assume) police folk.

 

[tsubaki]

The jury was shown footage of Masood, armed with two bloodied knives, pursuing officers following the attack on Palmer. It was instilled into that you were to act until back up arrived, or to act in case it didn't, to help remove the threat in order to protect life and property. Simple.

That still is what people are taught, but they are told to where possible think first. As an example, I draw your attention to this part of the report (emphasis added):

The jury was shown footage of Masood, armed with two bloodied knives, pursuing officers following the attack on Palmer.

There were other officers in Palace Yard and Masood was chasing them. Those officers had PPE and body armour (as had Palmer); Mackey had none. What do you expect him to have done in that situation apart from be stabbed? Do you blame those PCs for "running away"? I don't.

Look this isnt him being called to a pub to a fight and having to deal with it but walking away, it isnt facing a riot, it isnt an urgent assistance where someone stays in the canteen. It is a terror attack where a colleague was murdered in front of him (which he could do nothing about) then the suspect chasing other colleagues (which he could do nothing about) until two of the dozens of armed cops who are on duty in that building and were seconds away came and put Masood down.

Talking theoretically, what if he had stabbed someone else (say a member of the public) before the PPO or FOs arrived and officers had stood and waited?

Would his actions and actions of others have be seen differently?

Which is the thing that strikes me as being most absurd about your argument. The only thing that Mackey could realistically have done to stop someone else being stabbed is to be stabbed himself.

 

[PhilM]

Which is the thing that strikes me as being most absurd about your argument. The only thing that Mackey could realistically have done to stop someone else being stabbed is to be stabbed himself.

Absurd? How can you imply with certainly that he would have been stabbed? Like I said, perhaps it's generational but what about CID confronting criminals?

Or those off-duty? It's literally happened thousands of times over the years where cops have had to confront extremely violet criminals and people have survived.

Yes they may have been injured (sometimes seriously) or at least took a pasting, but they acted. You couldn't rely on stab vests, sprays or armour for protection...

...and you certainly couldn't use not having any of these items as an excuse to not act. And you keep separating it from other incidents due to it being terrorism.

In the simplest terms, it was a man with a vehicle and a knife trying to kill and harm. So yes, I can with uttermost certainty compare it with other real life situations.

You obviously disagree which is your prerogative, but for me it simply doesn't sit right that he sat in his car and didn't act when there were colleagues under attack.

The point that there were firearms nearby or that he was unarmed do not wash as a) he was at large at that time b) as a Con, you act. Or at least you did!

 

[PhilM]

Or why didn't he go to the officer's aid when the suspect was downed by the PPO?

 

[peteblue]

My thought process would have been...

* Can I help effectively by getting out the car and charging unarmed at an armed assailant?

Answer: Probably not.

* Can I do anything by sitting still in my car and doing nothing?

Answer: Obviously not.

* Can I do something by driving away and helping to organise the response?

Answer: Yeah probably.

So yeah, whilst on face value I share your view of it being uncomfortable in terms of instinct (which he actually acknowledges), but in terms of logic he did the right thing in my view.

Yeah, some good excuses here. My thought would have been can I run the b’stard over, but of course he didn’t have a stab vest or a radio......ffs, this sums up everything wrong with these overpaid placemen stealing a living. If it had been a squaddie or an army officer in that car, with or without a stab vest and a bleeding radio, that policeman would still be alive......

 

[peteblue]

No he shouldn' t.

Yes he should. And if it had been your son stabbed by that lunatic you would have a different opinion.......

 

[peteblue]

Or why didn't he go to the officer's aid when the suspect was downed by the PPO?

He was locked in the car.......

 

[tsubaki]

Absurd? How can you imply with certainly that he would have been stabbed? Like I said, perhaps it's generational but what about CID confronting criminals?

Again, it was a terrorist who he knew just stabbed one cop, and was trying to stab others.

Or those off-duty? It's literally happened thousands of times over the years where cops have had to confront extremely violet criminals and people have survived.

They have, but this is not your common or garden person handing out a kicking on a Friday night.

Yes they may have been injured (sometimes seriously) or at least took a pasting, but they acted. You couldn't rely on stab vests, sprays or armour for protection...

Please, we all understand how it was back in the day but you are citing a load of examples that were nothing like as serious as this and what is worse is that you are not saying what Mackey could have done to have changed any of it. At what point in the history of the Job have they actually expected people to be killed just to show that they have done something? That is what you are asking of him.

...and you certainly couldn't use not having any of these items as an excuse to not act. And you keep separating it from other incidents due to it being terrorism.

... because that is what it is. You keep raising the issue of Mackey not doing anything without acknowledging the fact that he could do nothing to help, not to save PC Palmer, not to neutralise the threat of Masood, not to protect his colleagues. All he could have done is challenge a man armed with two knives with no gear whatsoever, which given what had already happened would almost certainly have resulted in Mackey being stabbed and killed.

In the simplest terms, it was a man with a vehicle and a knife trying to kill and harm. So yes, I can with uttermost certainty compare it with other real life situations.

With respect, you cannot. Unless you were there or at London Bridge, noone can say that this was just like "other real life events". These were (and are) massive issues that have had a huge impact on especially the people who were at but also the people who had to deal with either (or both) of them, far in excess of the usual things cops and the other emergency services have to deal with.

You obviously disagree which is your prerogative, but for me it simply doesn't sit right that he sat in his car and didn't act when there were colleagues under attack.

The point that there were firearms nearby or that he was unarmed do not wash as a) he was at large at that time b) as a Con, you act. Or at least you did!

Again, you are saying that Mackey should have done something - irrespective of the fact that there were people far better able to do something nearby and who, as it turned out, did something to stop it. "Act first, think later" probably kills more people than it saves.

 

[longers]

Takes big balls for people to label someone a coward because they didn't put their own life at risk in a specific situation, very easy to cast judgement when you're not the one in that position regardless of if it's their paid duty or whatever. You must have a lot of confidence in your own bravery when faced with extremely difficulty situations. Good to know we have some real genuine internet heroes on here though.

 

[peteblue]

Which is what he did - he took what he considered the best course of action within his power.

Unless you can tell me how he'd be 'preserving life' by ordering two of his colleagues to charge unarmed into an assailant with weaponry alongside him...

He’s a coward, pure and simple. He did nothing, he hid, and he locked his car...locked his car. I give up on some of you honestly........

 

[peteblue]

Again, it was a terrorist who he knew just stabbed one cop, and was trying to stab others.



They have, but this is not your common or garden person handing out a kicking on a Friday night.



Please, we all understand how it was back in the day but you are citing a load of examples that were nothing like as serious as this and what is worse is that you are not saying what Mackey could have done to have changed any of it. At what point in the history of the Job have they actually expected people to be killed just to show that they have done something? That is what you are asking of him.



... because that is what it is. You keep raising the issue of Mackey not doing anything without acknowledging the fact that he could do nothing to help, not to save PC Palmer, not to neutralise the threat of Masood, not to protect his colleagues. All he could have done is challenge a man armed with two knives with no gear whatsoever, which given what had already happened would almost certainly have resulted in Mackey being stabbed and killed.



With respect, you cannot. Unless you were there or at London Bridge, noone can say that this was just like "other real life events". These were (and are) massive issues that have had a huge impact on especially the people who were at but also the people who had to deal with either (or both) of them, far in excess of the usual things cops and the other emergency services have to deal with.



Again, you are saying that Mackey should have done something - irrespective of the fact that there were people far better able to do something nearby and who, as it turned out, did something to stop it. "Act first, think later" probably kills more people than it saves.

Do you even read what you are writing. He was a senior policeman and he did nothing except protect his own life. What if it was children getting knifed, or your family, what would you say about him then. ‘Well he didn’t have a stab vest or a radio’.......Jesus wept......

 

[tsubaki]

Or why didn't he go to the officer's aid when the suspect was downed by the PPO?

... because people were already rendering first aid? Mackey and the evidence presented to both inquests said there were other officers in the Yard who gave (with that MP) first aid to him.