Current Affairs The "another stabbing in London" thread

[Tubey]

I’m going to paint myself as a hero on here or by the same token pretend I haven’t made bad decisions I just think it’s something I’d struggle with .

I’d also like to know why none of them had PPE , I’ll understand why the top man didn’t but I think maybe the others might have had some , that’s without knowing specifics . I’d also like to know the geography of the scene and where the car was in relation to the attack , as If he’s a threat to life and your in a vehicle then that presents an other option . I’m almost certain a bloke with a firearm was hit by a police vehicle years ago , all I mean is that the geography could make a difference as well .

It's all here. Mackay was at the gates - so he would have saw the terrorist stab the unarmed officer at the gate and saw him go inside.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45784043

That's why I understand the thought process - there's armed police there so why would he charge unarmed stupidly into the situation when there's an armed response that he could get into the middle of?

I think people see the headline and think "coward", whereas I see the situation and think "smart". Maybe he wasn't heroic, won't argue that, but if he was heroic I don't think he would have changed anything for the positive.

Also, this all happened in under two minutes - worth remembering that too.

 

[tsubaki]

Preserving the potential life of others. How he could have done that? Drove at him... charge at him... it doesn't matter, it was his duty to act and he did not.

This is a very easy statement to make and a very difficult one to actually put into practice.

If he had no armour, no PPE and the PC was already being stabbed then there really is nothing he could have done in that situation to alter anything (PC Palmer was stabbed inside the Palace Yard - so with no way to get the car up to speed to take Masood out); it isn't as if he was outside St Thomas' with the opportunity to stop Masood before he started his attack. What is more when you know there are going to be armed cops getting on scene and likely to shoot then you do not get in the way. Acting stupidly is worse than not acting.

 

[orchard]

Sir Robin ought to be demoted and put on the streets.

 

[PhilM]

This is a very easy statement to make and a very difficult one to actually put into practice.

If he had no armour, no PPE and the PC was already being stabbed then there really is nothing he could have done in that situation to alter anything (PC Palmer was stabbed inside the Palace Yard - so with no way to get the car up to speed to take Masood out); it isn't as if he was outside St Thomas' with the opportunity to stop Masood before he started his attack. What is more when you know there are going to be armed cops getting on scene and likely to shoot then you do not get in the way. Acting stupidly is worse than not acting.

Without sounding patronising, I'm talking from experience - if that makes sense. Before body armour, one-hundred and fifty years of policing still required action.

There was three of them in that car, at the scene, and I'm sorry they should have acted to protect the public and colleagues as that is the clear expectation.

Preservation of your own life in such situations is secondary, if not an irrelevance. How did they know the PPO would shoot him? What if they hadn't?

There's been numerous cops over the years who've been disciplined, or even lost their job, for less as it is seen as dereliction of duty. I doubt he'll face anything...

 

[Harryflashman]

It's all here. Mackay was at the gates - so he would have saw the terrorist stab the unarmed officer at the gate and saw him go inside.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-45784043

That's why I understand the thought process - there's armed police there so why would he charge unarmed stupidly into the situation when there's an armed response that he could get into the middle of?

I think people see the headline and think "coward", whereas I see the situation and think "smart". Maybe he wasn't heroic, won't argue that, but if he was heroic I don't think he would have changed anything for the positive.

Also, this all happened in under two minutes - worth remembering that too.

Lots of situations happen quickly though mate and I’m not being a Monday morning hero , I’ve been in some difficult ones . If he’s a police officer he should have experience situations where he’s had to think quickly hundreds of times shouldn’t he ?

I’ll check that link out now but there is a middle ground as well between getting off and charging in . There are options , sometimes you have to be there to see but I’ll have a look. Maybe he should have stayed to direct operations , I just don’t think he should have got off . Ultimately there are certain jobs in this world that when everybody runs left it’s your job to run right or at the very least not run left .

 

[Harryflashman]

Preserving the potential life of others. How he could have done that? Drove at him... charge at him... it doesn't matter, it was his duty to act and he did not.

Driving at him was the first thought that occurred to me I have to say .

 

[tsubaki]

I’m going to paint myself as a hero on here or by the same token pretend I haven’t made bad decisions I just think it’s something I’d struggle with .

I’d also like to know why none of them had PPE , I’ll understand why the top man didn’t but I think maybe the others might have had some , that’s without knowing specifics . I’d also like to know the geography of the scene and where the car was in relation to the attack , as If he’s a threat to life and your in a vehicle then that presents an other option . I’m almost certain a bloke with a firearm was hit by a police vehicle years ago , all I mean is that the geography could make a difference as well .

Mackey was the only cop in the car, the other two were civilians. From the reports the car was in the Palace Yard, near to the gates so it is questionable at best how much speed they would have been able to get up. I have no idea why he didn't have PPE, but at his level he wouldn't have been an operational cop for a considerable period of time.

To be honest Your comments chime with my own , anyone whose been in a situation or organisation where you rely on the support of colleagues and your welfare even life is potentially at risk is I think going to find it difficult to deal with the decision that was made whatever the arguments in it’s favour .

I disagree to an extent. A lot of the commentary on this appears to be under the impression that PC Palmer was physically struggling / rolling around on the floor when Mackey was present and that he (Mackey) ignored it wheras it seems Masood stabbed PC Palmer, who retreated past Mackey's car and then Masood continued onwards and got shot straight after by the protection officers.

If Mackey had ignored PC Palmer rolling around on the floor with someone with a knife then I'd agree it was contemptible and he would almost certainly have "retired" by now - but that is not what appears has happened.

 

[tsubaki]

Without sounding patronising, I'm talking from experience - if that makes sense. Before body armour, one-hundred and fifty years of policing still required action.

There was three of them in that car, at the scene, and I'm sorry they should have acted to protect the public and colleagues as that is the clear expectation.

Preservation of your own life in such situations is secondary, if not an irrelevance. How did they know the PPO would shoot him? What if they hadn't?

There's been numerous cops over the years who've been disciplined, or even lost their job, for less as it is seen as dereliction of duty. I doubt he'll face anything...

As am I, but for a start only one of the three in the car was a cop - the other two were civilians. What is it you are asking Mackey to do in this situation? More importantly, what would your action have done to change anything of what happened that day?

 

[PhilM]

Driving at him was the first thought that occurred to me I have to say .

Even if you can't, then get out and charge him. There's three of you so you should be able to overpower him or at least confine him until there's reinforcements.

There's a risk that one or more of you may be seriously injured, or even killed, but that's the burden. You take the role and that comes with a blank cheque.

Mackey was the only cop in the car, the other two were civilians.

He's admitted they were PCs. One would have been his driver, the other would have been his bag man.

"One of the PCs, quite rightfully, said: 'Get out, make safe, go, shut the door,' which he did, and it was the right thing to do"

 

[PhilM]

As am I, but for a start only one of the three in the car was a cop - the other two were civilians. What is it you are asking Mackey to do in this situation? More importantly, what would your action have done to change anything of what happened that day?

Get out and give him a go. It's easy to talk about in hindsight how it could have impacted, but at the time that was unknown as there was still a threat.

Sorry, but there's been times where the thoughts have been... this it... I'm not coming out alive. But you don't run away!

 

[Harryflashman]

Mackey was the only cop in the car, the other two were civilians. From the reports the car was in the Palace Yard, near to the gates so it is questionable at best how much speed they would have been able to get up. I have no idea why he didn't have PPE, but at his level he wouldn't have been an operational cop for a considerable period of time.



I disagree to an extent. A lot of the commentary on this appears to be under the impression that PC Palmer was physically struggling / rolling around on the floor when Mackey was present and that he (Mackey) ignored it wheras it seems Masood stabbed PC Palmer, who retreated past Mackey's car and then Masood continued onwards and got shot straight after by the protection officers.

If Mackey had ignored PC Palmer rolling around on the floor with someone with a knife then I'd agree it was contemptible and he would almost certainly have "retired" by now - but that is not what appears has happened.

I did say above I didn’t know the details and saw it was a police driver and therefore assumed it was a police officer , you’re right it wasn’t so he wouldn’t have ppe . I understand why the boss wouldn’t .

Having just read the story , briefly . The idea of a serving police officer of any rank watching another officer pursued by a bloke wielding a knife and driving away , I’m sorry isn’t appropriate in my opinion . Again I’ve said I can accept the reasoning but i find it personally unacceptable. I don’t believe I’d drive away and I’m not a police officer .

 

[Harryflashman]

Even if you can't, then get out and charge him. There's three of you so you should be able to overpower him or at least confine him until there's reinforcements.

There's a risk that one or more of you may be seriously injured, or even killed, but that's the burden. You take the role and that comes with a blank cheque.


He's admitted they were PCs. One would have been his driver, the other would have been his bag man.

"One of the PCs, quite rightfully, said: 'Get out, make safe, go, shut the door,' which he did, and it was the right thing to do"

It seems there are conflicting reports because I thought they were I’ve just briefly read a report that said they were both civilians .

 

[tsubaki]

Get out and give him a go. It's easy to talk about in hindsight how it could have impacted, but at the time that was unknown as there was still a threat.

Sorry, but there's been times where the thoughts have been... this it... I'm not coming out alive. But you don't run away!

He didn't run away though, and as for "get out and give him a go" by the time he - or anyone else in that situation - had time to make that decision Masood had been shot dead. Lets not forget this was an attack that was over, from the first person hit on the bridge to Masood being shot, in 82 seconds.

Also his evidence to the inquest was quite clear:

He told the inquest that though it was his “instinct” to get out of the car, he was wearing a short-sleeved shirt with no equipment and was accompanied by two colleagues who were not police officers. “I think anyone who came up against that individual would have faced serious, serious injury, if not death,” he added.

(from here)

To elaborate on something I said above - if this was a case where Mackey could have actually done something to change any of this then I would be condemning him as well, but at the moment it appears to be a load of people on the internet having a pop at him when almost all of them have never been in that situation and (what is worse) because he didn't do something that would have done nothing substantial anyway.

edit: I think the comment about the PC is about one of PC Palmer's colleagues (and it may be after the incident)

 

[PhilM]

He didn't run away though, and as for "get out and give him a go" by the time he - or anyone else in that situation - had time to make that decision Masood had been shot dead. Lets not forget this was an attack that was over, from the first person hit on the bridge to Masood being shot, in 82 seconds.

Also his evidence to the inquest was quite clear:
(from here)

To elaborate on something I said above - if this was a case where Mackey could have actually done something to change any of this then I would be condemning him as well, but at the moment it appears to be a load of people on the internet having a pop at him when almost all of them have never been in that situation and (what is worse) because he didn't do something that would have done nothing substantial anyway.

From what I've read and been told, he informed the inquest that he drove back to NSY to given a first hand account. I wonder if that went in his up to date PB?

Personally, it shouldn't have been a decision to make as, talking from experience, it should have been a matter on instinct and if not then to stay as a leader.

Most similar minded individuals as myself, with similar experience, agree so I don't feel that it's merely people on the internet who haven't been in such a situation.

Perhaps it's a generational thing, however I know hundreds of cops who have been in much worse situations, with much less backup, but stood and held the line.

 

[tsubaki]

From what I've read and been told, he informed the inquest that he drove back to NSY to given a first hand account. I wonder if that went in his up to date PB?

Personally, it shouldn't have been a decision to make as, talking from experience, it should have been a matter on instinct and if not then to stay as a leader.

Most similar minded individuals as myself, with similar experience, agree so I don't feel that it's merely people on the internet who haven't been in such a situation.

Perhaps it's a generational thing, however I know hundreds of cops who have been in much worse situations, with much less backup, but stood and held the line.

He went to NSY after Masood had been shot, so it is a bit much to say he "ran away". Is the criticism of him now that he didn't stay and take command of the incident on the scene? If so that is a bit of a misunderstanding of how police command structures actually work, and to be honest it makes the criticism of him for not getting out and doing "something" even more bizarre.

As for "hundreds of cops who have been in much worse situations with much less backup" - we are here talking about a terrorist who had just ran over dozens of people and then murdered a cop, lets not pretend that there have been that many incidents that British cops (or any cops tbh) have had to face "much worse" than this. What happened that day was unprecedented in the UK (at that point) and had only been seen a couple of times in Europe.

What I am trying to say is that this criticism is daft; it is aimed at making Mackey - and by extension the rest of the unarmed officers who were on duty in that Yard that day - seem like cowards because they didn't do something.