Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[LinekersLegs]

I'm just not sure quite where the idea that owning a gun is a good means of defending oneself comes from.

Tbf I can but it also carries a fair few provisos. The primary ones being that the person regularly both uses the gun to become familiar with it and also trains in similar high pressure situations. Imo that training is necessary to have the mental capacity to keep calm enough to target and fire at the correct person rather than either just shooting wildly or freezing in panic.

Seen people mention the Swiss reservists but presumably they actually do get trained on things like safe weapon storage and how to react under stress which your average Joe going into a store just doesn't get even if they go out hunting with it on a weekend.

Whenever I've looked at the data my conclusion has been that the risk of the gun in the household being used in either rage/accident/depression to hurt someone in that household is far far greater than it being used safely in self defense and that is even before the likelihood of it being stolen and used in another crime. But plenty of my friends and neighbours disagree.

 

[caught]

The idea that because criminals have guns it is a justification for the public to possess guns is completely ludicrous. As I said earlier, the politicians must assist the executive, and not lay down to the demands of the lobbyists.

It requires the same moral fibre and courage that eventually abolished the slave trade. It's an inconvenient truth that the right to possess a weapon is killing hundreds of innocent people year in year out - it's time to abolish that right and accept that the role of law enforcement and public safety lies in the hands of the law enforcement organisations not the individual.

There's a significant amount of people who would argue that the police possessing firearms is a justification for the public to do so as well.

 

[ilikecheese]

Those of you not living in this country simply just don't get how much against a banishment of guns the right wing's stance is on this topic.

We struggle to get stricter gun laws passed because of the right wing who are representing their constituents.

I said it earlier in the thread. States in the south would vote to secede from the United States before they would vote for banishing guns. I am not exaggerating.

 

[ItsOKImAPilot]

Well of course they would, just like they do now. They're called criminals. Tell most regular folks that they can't have a gun anymore and most will just turn them in. Those who don't become a criminal. At least when the cops then see someone with a gun, they know they're a criminal and can be dealt with accordingly.

I do not think it is that easy here and it's one of the huge differences in our cultures. People think the justification for the ability to own guns is an unalienable right secured in the Constitution. I'm not talking about a handful of people that will just f off into the woods, millions of Americans feel it's their right. Even if you go the legislation through, how do you go about removing the guns from circulation with people so protective of that right?

 

[The Cowboy]

I do not think it is that easy here and it's one of the huge differences in our cultures. People think the justification for the ability to own guns is an unalienable right secured in the Constitution. I'm not talking about a handful of people that will just f off into the woods, millions of Americans feel it's their right. Even if you go the legislation through, how do you go about removing the guns from circulation with people so protective of that right?

You tell them 'you have 30 seconds to comply'. That'll have them handing them over.

 

[ItsOKImAPilot]

You tell them 'you have 30 seconds to comply'. That'll have them handing them over.

Tell them they have 30 seconds to comply and they will barricade themselves in within 15 seconds.

 

[The Cowboy]

Tell them they have 30 seconds to comply and they will barricade themselves in within 15 seconds.

Great, that's perverting the course of justice then. We'll add that into the sentence for illegal firearms.

 

[mezzrow]

I do not think it is that easy here and it's one of the huge differences in our cultures. People think the justification for the ability to own guns is an unalienable right secured in the Constitution. I'm not talking about a handful of people that will just f off into the woods, millions of Americans feel it's their right. Even if you go the legislation through, how do you go about removing the guns from circulation with people so protective of that right?

At some point, you will arrive at that Molon Labe moment. House by house, armed agents of the government will conduct an inspection with sophisticated instruments to determine if you have an illegal weapon on your person or on your property and take it away. That's what we are eventually talking about here. Think of the BBC licence fee and the methods for catching offenders who haven't paid their jizya for their telly.

People who truly understand America and its culture understand that down to their socks. There are some who would thrill to that moment for the opportunity to disarm the American populace, because of the opportunities that would open up for those who hate America as it is and can only begin to love it when it is destroyed reformed and replaced with something else. Those of us who treasure our history, warts and all, and believe in the idea of America will do what we can to keep that day away.

The folks here on GOT who hate the idea of guns in public don't hate America, they just don't know this country like we do. They have nothing but good intentions. The road to hell is paved with that. I don't tell you how to run your country.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Those of you not living in this country simply just don't get how much against a banishment of guns the right wing's stance is on this topic.

We struggle to get stricter gun laws passed because of the right wing who are representing their constituents.

I said it earlier in the thread. States in the south would vote to secede from the United States before they would vote for banishing guns. I am not exaggerating.

Pretty hefty section of the left who would oppose an outright ban as well, have a friend who even a Liverpudlian would consider left wing and yet he's done a lot of rifle shooting in competitions and would strongly reject not being able to own a gun. Another who is more politically central never uses her shotgun but her deceased Dad used to take her out as a kid shooting at non-live targets and so it is a reminder of him that she'd be very reluctant to give up. Overall think it nigh on impossible to introduce a law banning all guns unless American culture takes a radical shift.

However prior to 2004 assault weapons were illegal so returning to that situation might be easier to accomplish.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

At some point, you will arrive at that Molon Labe moment. House by house, armed agents of the government will conduct an inspection with sophisticated instruments to determine if you have an illegal weapon on your person or on your property and take it away. That's what we are eventually talking about here. Think of the BBC licence fee and the methods for catching offenders who haven't paid their jizya for their telly.

People who truly understand America and its culture understand that down to their socks. There are some who would thrill to that moment for the opportunity to disarm the American populace, because of the opportunities that would open up for those who hate America as it is and can only begin to love it when it is destroyed reformed and replaced with something else. Those of us who treasure our history, warts and all, and believe in the idea of America will do what we can to keep that day away.

The folks here on GOT who hate the idea of guns in public don't hate America, they just don't know this country like we do. They have nothing but good intentions. The road to hell is paved with that. I don't tell you how to run your country.

Well, firstly I'm not sure you can say that it's only non-Americans who are thinking this. For instance, I posted a link earlier in this thread to research from your most prestigious university saying things are crazy.

Secondly, it's a sad time for any nation to shut its eyes and its ears to the outside world. None of us are above learning from others, so maybe there are things the US can learn from other countries, just as there are things other countries can learn from the US.

 

[ilikecheese]

Pretty hefty section of the left who would oppose an outright ban as well, have a friend who even a Liverpudlian would consider left wing and yet he's done a lot of rifle shooting in competitions and would strongly reject not being able to own a gun. Another who is more politically central never uses her shotgun but her deceased Dad used to take her out as a kid shooting at non-live targets and so it is a reminder of him that she'd be very reluctant to give up. Overall think it nigh on impossible to introduce a law banning all guns unless American culture takes a radical shift.

However prior to 2004 assault weapons were illegal so returning to that situation might be easier to accomplish.

Couldn't agree more about the assault rifle business.

Also agree about folks on both sides of the political table would balk at any attempt to ban guns altogether...hence why I don't think it will ever happen over here.

I wasn't necessarily trying to politicize this, but @The Esk was saying that it will take strong politicians to make such a change happen, and well, frankly, that is over simplifying the issue in my view. Politicians represent their constituents and hopefully their constituents wishes. Having lived in the south for long stretches, I can assure you those politicians are representing the majority of their constituents with regards to guns.

 

[SerenityNigh]

The idea that because criminals have guns it is a justification for the public to possess guns is completely ludicrous. As I said earlier, the politicians must assist the executive, and not lay down to the demands of the lobbyists.

It requires the same moral fibre and courage that eventually abolished the slave trade. It's an inconvenient truth that the right to possess a weapon is killing hundreds of innocent people year in year out - it's time to abolish that right and accept that the role of law enforcement and public safety lies in the hands of the law enforcement organisations not the individual.

Politicians will only now be swayed by public demand. Those with independent thought are few and often chased out of office early.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Awesome post. The issue here though is the amount of weapons already in circulation. There is no plan that could ever get rid of guns in our society. People would just deal them under the table.

Black markets always exist, but all the recent mass shootings were with legally acquired guns (i.e., not black market purchases)

 

[SerenityNigh]

Awesome post. The issue here though is the amount of weapons already in circulation. There is no plan that could ever get rid of guns in our society. People would just deal them under the table.

Besides the obvious fact that simple measures can make a large impact given time.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Those of you not living in this country simply just don't get how much against a banishment of guns the right wing's stance is on this topic.

We struggle to get stricter gun laws passed because of the right wing who are representing their constituents.

I said it earlier in the thread. States in the south would vote to secede from the United States before they would vote for banishing guns. I am not exaggerating.

Not to mention that the NRA has people thinking "my right to bear arms" = "my right to own as many of any time of weapon and ammunition, and any restriction to my access of any kind is a constitutional infringement"