Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[peteblue]

It doesn't upset me pete.

I just disagree. Acts like this make LBGTQ more frightened to come out, to be themselves, to go to a club and enjoy themselves. It makes them frightened to live openly - because they know they may be targeted for who they are.

Of course every death is horrible and terrible for everyone, but hate crime is considered worse in the eyes of the law because of the effect it has on a community of people otherwise unrelated to the crime.

It matters because there are more victims than just those directly affected (and society in general).

I was talking to a mate in the pub tonight about this. I said to just imagine all of your friends and family and count them up to 50. That's when the number becomes staggering. Then think of the parents, siblings and their friends or workmates and the number of those directly affected runs into hundreds. In this case it was LGBT, tomorrow it will be Jewish, the day after just someone in the wrong place or on a bus or plane. These people don't really care but try to use 'groups' as a form of justification. For me a death is a death........

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

See my above post.

AGAIN with this ludicrous "well if we can't fix the entire problem then why bother" attitude.

So you don't stop the "day to day everyday murders in big cities" well actually over time you would have an impact on them, because illegal guns would become harder and harder to get hold of, and therefore more and more expensive to acquire, but hey ho, let's take your statement as fact.

So all you do is stop the disenfranchised kid from going to his uncle's arsenal and blowing away half his class at school. Or the confused, ill educated, hateful ISIS-fanboy from legally acquiring a weapon and killing 50 revellers in Orlando.

Well that's a DREADFUL day at the office, isn't it?

 

[dandydan]

Criminals will have guns either way.

I never suggested they won't. I also didn't suggest that we'd get rid of guns from all legal gun owners.

I did suggest that there will be less guns and more difficult access overall. Joe Blow accountant is less likely to shoot his wife, her lover, and their 2 kids when he comes home and finds she's cheating on him. Because Joe Blow accountant isn't a drug dealer and doesn't have immediate access to a firearm.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

I'm not opposed to making it harder, nor am I saying there isn't a problem. But a complete ban as proposed by some isn't the answer. What is the right answer? I'm honest enough to say buggered if I know.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

It absolutely infuriates and baffles me that there are such a significant number of people who believe that either nothing can or worse nothing SHOULD be done about the gun issue in America.

For people who live there who hold the opposite and frankly much more sensible view, I can only imagine how much worse it must be.

 

[Seanjd]

Anyone who gets killed is dead. Whether the cretin who did it killed them because of religion, sexual orientation, race or whatever I find irrelevant. It's the fact that real ordinary people are dead that upsets me.....sorry if this upsets folk who want a reason for it.........

To make any problem like this better, you need to find out why it happened. The fact that it was a homophobic attack is important for exactly the reasons @RaleighBlue explained.

The murderer was a US citizen, born in the USA. What drives a man to kill 49 people in his own country? This is so important to understand for even any small debate to happen to inform anything which can change this. Him, and many like him, are being radicalised for different reasons. This is such a complex issue which is fundmental to understand.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

I'm not opposed to making it harder, nor am I saying there isn't a problem. But a complete ban as proposed by some isn't the answer. What is the right answer? I'm honest enough to say buggered if I know.

Why the hell not though? A complete ban doesn't need to equate to a complete absence of guns (legal and illegal) to be worthwhile.

 

[SNova]

Gun crime in Switzerland still far higher than the UK. Not sure why @SNova would endorse this to be honest. Also, like you mentioned, it has a lot to do with conscription.

Gun crime will be higher where there are guns. However, Switzerland have very low homicide rate. I'm also in favour of National Service.

 

[RaleighBlue]

I'm not opposed to making it harder, nor am I saying there isn't a problem. But a complete ban as proposed by some isn't the answer. What is the right answer? I'm honest enough to say buggered if I know.

I suggest again that you're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

This is the logic that has led to the standstill we have in America:
'You won't completely stop gun violence, so it's just not worth banning guns/registering guns/banning assault weapons/banning hand guns'. And we do nothing, and people die.

Something must be done. If it's not perfect, c'est la vie - we must take action.

Yet, I realize that a classroom full of dead children changed nothing - it will not change.

 

[bring the ghost on]

Gun crime will be higher where there are guns. However, Switzerland have very low homicide rate. I'm also in favour of National Service.

I thought you were a libertarian, where is the freedom in conscription?

 

[dandydan]

AGAIN with this ludicrous "well if we can't fix the entire problem then why bother" attitude.

So you don't stop the "day to day everyday murders in big cities" well actually over time you would have an impact on them, because illegal guns would become harder and harder to get hold of, and therefore more and more expensive to acquire, but hey ho, let's take your statement as fact.

So all you do is stop the disenfranchised kid from going to his uncle's arsenal and blowing away half his class at school. Or the confused, ill educated, hateful ISIS-fanboy from legally acquiring a weapon and killing 50 revellers in Orlando.

Well that's a DREADFUL day at the office, isn't it?

Lets ignore the deaths caused or saved for a moment. Do you think that someone giving up a legally purchased item to the government for disposal is entitled to adequate compensation? There's an estimated 250 million.

 

[bring the ghost on]

I suggest again that you're letting perfect be the enemy of good.

This is the logic that has led to the standstill we have in America:
'You won't completely stop gun violence, so it's just not worth banning guns/registering guns/banning assault weapons/banning hand guns'. And we do nothing, and people die.

Something must be done. If it's not perfect, c'est la vie - we must take action.

Yet, I realize that a classroom full of dead children changed nothing - it will not change.

Exactly. We may never change the existing generation, or the next one, but for Christ's sake, when so many people needlessly lose their lives at a high rate because of a stupid gun policy - change it. Future generations will thank us.

 

[SNova]

I thought you were a libertarian, where is the freedom in conscription?

I lean towards libertarian on many issues, but I'm not a full blown Libertarian.

 

[Minimeister]

Why the hell not though? A complete ban doesn't need to equate to a complete absence of guns (legal and illegal) to be worthwhile.

Totally agree with you mate but if the majority of Americans would rather keep the right to own a gun even when a class full of kids are murdered in cold blood then even something like this isn't going to change that mentality. No matter how utterly ridiculous it seems.

 

[peteblue]

To make any problem like this better, you need to find out why it happened. The fact that it was a homophobic attack is important for exactly the reasons @RaleighBlue explained.

The murderer was a US citizen, born in the USA. What drives a man to kill 49 people in his own country? This is so important to understand for even any small debate to happen to inform anything which can change this. Him, and many like him, are being radicalised for different reasons. This is such a complex issue which is fundmental to understand.

I understand that, but if he hadn't killed the people in the club, he would probably have gone to a mall or a school. That nutter was going to kill someone however he rationalised it away...........

 

[bring the ghost on]

I lean towards libertarian on many issues, but I'm not a full blown Libertarian.

When it's something you disagree with, it's Big Government Interference, but when it's compulsory national service, you're happy for the nanny state to exist?

I don't want to do National Service, do you respect my freedom to choose?