Current Affairs The " another shooting in America " thread

[BirkenheadBlue]

How many of those 13000 were killed with illegal guns? You note suicides, not really something gun control would eradicate is it? Someone determined to kill themselves will find a way turning a gun on yourself is just the easiest.
How do you propose enforcing a ban on guns by the way?

Why are you focused on eradication?! I never mentioned eradication. And you've just said it yourself, it's the easiest. Do you not think that removing such a quick easy and irreversible (by this I mean if someone takes 100 paracetamol or something similar they have some time to rethink their decision and get medical help when the realisation of what they've done or attempted to do hits them) method of suicide would have some impact? And isn't that worth pursuing? America's suicide rate is about double the UK's. I'm sure it's just a coincidence like the massively elevated murder rate.

A fair few were probably committed with illegal guns. But you know what most illegal guns start out as? Legal guns. if I walk to a Walmart and buy a gun, then file off the serial number, it's then an illegal gun. If I sell it to someone, or its stolen from me, it's then an illegal gun. Stopping the illegal supply of weapons would (eventually) have an impact on the availability of illegal weapons.

 

[RaleighBlue]

It also matters why their killer thought they should die.

This is a red herring.

They were killed because of their sexual identities. There are many, many, many different groups that have a problem with alternative sexual identities.

All of those groups are wrong. Inclusiveness, generosity, and kindness is the way forward for civilization and the human race. One can blame a belief system, or we can learn from its failings. Hate is wrong. We fight it with love and openness, not divisiveness.

It matters why the killer thought they should die. Because it speaks to a failure in the systems of civilization that a man can be so disillusioned, so disenfranchised, and so filled with hate and disgust that he feels that taking lives is an acceptable (let alone necessary course of action). But it is not, and cannot be, a broad brush with which to further divisions throughout our culture and our world, for that is the way of destruction.

 

[dandydan]

Why are you focused on eradication?! I never mentioned eradication. And you've just said it yourself, it's the easiest. Do you not think that removing such a quick easy and irreversible (by this I mean if someone takes 100 paracetamol or something similar they have some time to rethink their decision and get medical help when the realisation of what they've done or attempted to do hits them) method of suicide would have some impact? And isn't that worth pursuing? America's suicide rate is about double the UK's. I'm sure it's just a coincidence like the massively elevated murder rate.

A fair few were probably committed with illegal guns. But you know what most illegal guns start out as? Legal guns. if I walk to a Walmart and buy a gun, then file off the serial number, it's then an illegal gun. If I sell it to someone, or its stolen from me, it's then an illegal gun. Stopping the illegal supply of weapons would (eventually) have an impact on the availability of illegal weapons.

So how do you propose to enforce a ban on the weapons currently held legally?

 

[dandydan]

This is a red herring.

They were killed because of their sexual identities. There are many, many, many different groups that have a problem with alternative sexual identities.

All of those groups are wrong. Inclusiveness, generosity, and kindness is the way forward for civilization and the human race. One can blame a belief system, or we can learn from its failings. Hate is wrong. We fight it with love and openness, not divisiveness.

It matters why the killer thought they should die. Because it speaks to a failure in the systems of civilization that a man can be so disillusioned, so disenfranchised, and so filled with hate and disgust that he feels that taking lives is an acceptable (let alone necessary course of action). But it is not, and cannot be, a broad brush with which to further divisions throughout our culture and our world, for that is the way of destruction.

Sadly some see that attitude as mere weakness and might makes right.

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

So how do you propose to enforce a ban on the weapons currently held legally?

Thanks for ignoring every point I made.

As for enforcement, I'm sure both UK and Australia could offer some helpful advice, since both countries have done the same after infinitely fewer deaths of their own citizens.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Sadly some see that attitude as mere weakness and might makes right.

Immaterial.

There will always be criminals. That doesn't mean we should not attempt to reform them.

There will always be war. That doesn't mean we should precipitate it.

There will always be hate. That doesn't mean we should foster it.

 

[dandydan]

Thanks for ignoring every point I made.

As for enforcement, I'm sure both UK and Australia could offer some helpful advice, since both countries have done the same after infinitely fewer deaths of their own citizens.

The biggest problem is enforcement, there's a shed load more gun owners in America and a lot of them Wont play ball. So how do we get for arguments sake I'll give a low figure of 10% of NRA members (wiki states 5,000,000) unwilling to hand over their guns to comply with the law?

 

[RaleighBlue]

The biggest problem is enforcement, there's a shed load more gun owners in America and a lot of them Wont play ball. So how do we get for arguments sake I'll give a low figure of 10% of NRA members (wiki states 5,000,000) unwilling to hand over their guns to comply with the law?

We end up with 90% less guns?

 

[peteblue]

Pete, how can it not matter why they died?

Anyone who gets killed is dead. Whether the cretin who did it killed them because of religion, sexual orientation, race or whatever I find irrelevant. It's the fact that real ordinary people are dead that upsets me.....sorry if this upsets folk who want a reason for it.........

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

The biggest problem is enforcement, there's a shed load more gun owners in America and a lot of them Wont play ball. So how do we get for arguments sake I'll give a low figure of 10% of NRA members (wiki states 5,000,000) unwilling to hand over their guns to comply with the law?

I don't remember saying it would be easy. But other countries have done it, so I doubt it's impossible.

And let's take your scenario. I'll even give you double. Let's say 20% or NRA members are willing to become criminals to protect their right to be absolute ****wits. (I doubt it'd be that high or anywhere near t when push actually came to shove, but let's go with it)

Well congratulations America, you've just taken 4,000,000 people worth of guns off the streets. I've no idea what that equates to in number of weapons, but I think it's probably safe to say it's way more than a 1:1 ratio.

Isn't THAT something worth pursuing? After that, you work at dealing with the rest, but that is a HUGE potential impact to have on a society!!

 

[BirkenheadBlue]

We end up with 90% less guns?

Maybe I should have put it that succinctly.

 

[dandydan]

We end up with 90% less guns?

90% less legal guns. It won't stop the everyday murders in big cities. Plus if the gun supply dries up at home there's plenty of people who can get them into America along with their drugs shipments.
Now about the 500,000 who are saying "out of my cold, dead hands"? Oblige them? Lock them up?

 

[RaleighBlue]

Anyone who gets killed is dead. Whether the cretin who did it killed them because of religion, sexual orientation, race or whatever I find irrelevant. It's the fact that real ordinary people are dead that upsets me.....sorry if this upsets folk who want a reason for it.........

It doesn't upset me pete.

I just disagree. Acts like this make LBGTQ more frightened to come out, to be themselves, to go to a club and enjoy themselves. It makes them frightened to live openly - because they know they may be targeted for who they are.

Of course every death is horrible and terrible for everyone, but hate crime is considered worse in the eyes of the law because of the effect it has on a community of people otherwise unrelated to the crime.

It matters because there are more victims than just those directly affected (and society in general).

 

[dandydan]

I don't remember saying it would be easy. But other countries have done it, so I doubt it's impossible.

And let's take your scenario. I'll even give you double. Let's say 20% or NRA members are willing to become criminals to protect their right to be absolute ****wits. (I doubt it'd be that high or anywhere near t when push actually came to shove, but let's go with it)

Well congratulations America, you've just taken 4,000,000 people worth of guns off the streets. I've no idea what that equates to in number of weapons, but I think it's probably safe to say it's way more than a 1:1 ratio.

Isn't THAT something worth pursuing? After that, you work at dealing with the rest, but that is a HUGE potential impact to have on a society!!

See my above post.

 

[RaleighBlue]

90% less legal guns. It won't stop the everyday murders in big cities. Plus if the gun supply dries up at home there's plenty of people who can get them into America along with their drugs shipments.
Now about the 500,000 who are saying "out of my cold, dead hands"? Oblige them? Lock them up?

Criminals will have guns either way.

I never suggested they won't. I also didn't suggest that we'd get rid of guns from all legal gun owners.

I did suggest that there will be less guns and more difficult access overall. Joe Blow accountant is less likely to shoot his wife, her lover, and their 2 kids when he comes home and finds she's cheating on him. Because Joe Blow accountant isn't a drug dealer and doesn't have immediate access to a firearm.

You're letting perfect be the enemy of good.