Current Affairs Stocks and shares and stuff

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

If they start sanctioning companies for either holding or accepting it, then they very well could IMO, at least at a large scale level.

True, TSLA now accepts bitcoin to buy their cars and they have stated they wont be converting bitcoin into fiat, it will remain on their books as an asset.

I think it would be very bold of them to sanction TSLA but you never know with the us gvmt

 

[carolinablue232]

True, TSLA now accepts bitcoin to buy their cars and they have stated they wont be converting bitcoin into fiat, it will remain on their books as an asset.

I think it would be very bold of them to sanction TSLA but you never know with the us gvmt

Not just Tesla. There are several that have bitcoin on their balance sheet now. But if we know one thing here it’s that if you threaten the institution, the institution bites back.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Keep calling crypto a bubble and enjoy your tiny annual gains.

I already said if I was into speculation I would be all over crypto. But alas, I'm loss-averse.

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

Not just Tesla. There are several that have bitcoin on their balance sheet now. But if we know one thing here it’s that if you threaten the institution, the institution bites back.

That's very true ha! it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Personally i think the horse has bolted and it will be too hard to stop

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

I already said if I was into speculation I would be all over crypto. But alas, I'm loss-averse.

Do you hate money? ha, just curious if you invest at all?

 

[SerenityNigh]

If they start sanctioning companies for either holding or accepting it, then they very well could IMO, at least at a large scale level.

I don't know about sanctioning, but anything that shows as income or gains is taxable, that already exists. I think the question for TSLA is where do they show these assets, and if any are held offshore do they repatriate? Maybe they "sell" the car outside of the US, but it gets delivered in the US. Someone will pay those taxes. That's not an argument against crypto, IMO that's a normalization/argument in favor of it. But unless institutions like TSLA start paying expenses in crypto, it gets too sticky to be a liquid currency. As long as there's huge arbitrage gains separating a crypto's value and the local fiat, that blocks acceptance. When/if values normalize it can be a useful credit tool.

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

I don't know about sanctioning, but anything that shows as income or gains is taxable, that already exists. I think the question for TSLA is where do they show these assets, and if any are held offshore do they repatriate? Maybe they "sell" the car outside of the US, but it gets delivered in the US. Someone will pay those taxes. That's not an argument against crypto, IMO that's a normalization/argument in favor of it. But unless institutions like TSLA start paying expenses in crypto, it gets too sticky to be a liquid currency. As long as there's huge arbitrage gains separating a crypto's value and the local fiat, that blocks acceptance. When/if values normalize it can be a useful credit tool.

Bitcoin will never be widely used as a traditional currency, it is not scalable.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Do you hate money? ha, just curious if you invest at all?

Yes, indeed just today I've purchased shares in two large US held companies. But my trades are all vanilla. I probably should/have punt/ed $1,000 or so on BTC back in the day, but investing is a secondary interest for me, and my personality makes it easier for me to spot value than to predict and account for trends. So I speak plainly (you can read upthread and see this): crypto is a wonderful speculative play, but it has no underlying value.

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

Yes, indeed just today I've purchased shares in two large US held companies. But my trades are all vanilla. I probably should/have punt/ed $1,000 or so on BTC back in the day, but investing is a secondary interest for me, and my personality makes it easier for me to spot value than to predict and account for trends. So I speak plainly (you can read upthread and see this): crypto is a wonderful speculative play, but it has no underlying value.

There is value in replacing legacy systems like SWIFT (XRP/XLM) or replicating the bond/CD market on the blockchain (HEX) or smart contracts (ETH) the list goes on...

 

[SerenityNigh]

There is value in replacing legacy systems like SWIFT (XRP/XLM) or replicating the bond/CD market on the blockchain (HEX) or smart contracts (ETH) the list goes on...

I agree in the value of blockchain technology, but I'm not convinced this technology is the asset. Maybe that's where I misunderstand--maybe the medium is the asset. But then if that's true then i have these questions:

1. what determines valuation of different cryptocurrencies; are the technologies sufficiently divergent to differentiate in asset value?
2. what prevents "printing" or dilution of crypto shares? how is this different from fiat printing?
3. how can you use cyptocurrencies with unstable values? I mean this in the market sense--it makes no sense to trade an unstable asset for value against milk, eggs, cars, and houses.

I don't see how cryptocurrencies can be both a speculative asset and a currency. That don't make no sense.

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

I agree in the value of blockchain technology, but I'm not convinced this technology is the asset. Maybe that's where I misunderstand--maybe the medium is the asset. But then if that's true then i have these questions:

1. what determines valuation of different cryptocurrencies; are the technologies sufficiently divergent to differentiate in asset value?
2. what prevents "printing" or dilution of crypto shares? how is this different from fiat printing?
3. how can you use cyptocurrencies with unstable values? I mean this in the market sense--it makes no sense to trade an unstable asset for value against milk, eggs, cars, and houses.

I don't see how cryptocurrencies can be both a speculative asset and a currency. That don't make no sense.

1. Yes - There are many different 'consensus protocols' used to achieve consensus. Proof of Work is what is used by Bitcoin/Ethereum and many other coins but there are other examples such as Proof of Stake. Each coin/token is different, much like each company is different. for example Bitcoin and Ethereum are vastly different despite both using Proof of Work

2. This depends on the token. Some tokens have an initial printing of their total supply (XRP) whereby all the tokens are minted on the genesis block and there is no mining. Other tokens like bitcoin have a predefined limit and these are minted through mining so are slowly released over time. Poorly written code allows coins to have something similar to hyperinflation where the developer can print as many coins as he wants, called an inflation bug. This has happened once to Bitcoin but was caught by a developer before it was exploited.

3. I would agree that using crypto for buying your groceries is a nonsensical idea due to the volitilty, like I mentioned earlier Bitcoin will never be used as a traditional currency, in any sort of widespread fashion. Despite being called 'coins' and crypto 'currency' I see them as more comparable to stocks than I do currencies.

Hope this was helpful

 

[SerenityNigh]

1. Yes - There are many different 'consensus protocols' used to achieve consensus. Proof of Work is what is used by Bitcoin/Ethereum and many other coins but there are other examples such as Proof of Stake. Each coin/token is different, much like each company is different. for example Bitcoin and Ethereum are vastly different despite both using Proof of Work

2. This depends on the token. Some tokens have an initial printing of their total supply (XRP) whereby all the tokens are minted on the genesis block and there is no mining. Other tokens like bitcoin have a predefined limit and these are minted through mining so are slowly released over time. Poorly written code allows coins to have something similar to hyperinflation where the developer can print as many coins as he wants, called an inflation bug. This has happened once to Bitcoin but was caught by a developer before it was exploited.

3. I would agree that using crypto for buying your groceries is a nonsensical idea due to the volitilty, like I mentioned earlier Bitcoin will never be used as a traditional currency, in any sort of widespread fashion. Despite being called 'coins' and crypto 'currency' I see them as more comparable to stocks than I do currencies.

Hope this was helpful

But the question is whether different methods produce different values--is that true? Otherwise the values of each token are arbitrary, set by an arbitrary basis, defined supply, and a whimsical demand. If the value of any token currency isn't pegged to something underlying, it just floats in the ether, so the speak. On the final point, we seem to agree that crypto/tokens are an asset or commodity, and not a currency. And while government issued currency are also subject to crises of supply and whims of demand, there are many underlying factors that produce a calculable value, of which circulation is only one.

 

[TheSecondComing]

Look up dark pools if don’t believe these markets are manipulation

 

[DuuuncanHadaPigeon]

But the question is whether different methods produce different values--is that true? Otherwise the values of each token are arbitrary, set by an arbitrary basis, defined supply, and a whimsical demand. If the value of any token currency isn't pegged to something underlying, it just floats in the ether, so the speak. On the final point, we seem to agree that crypto/tokens are an asset or commodity, and not a currency. And while government issued currency are also subject to crises of supply and whims of demand, there are many underlying factors that produce a calculable value, of which circulation is only one.

Different methods of consensus protocols? They all achieve the same outcome - consensus - but there are pros/cons to each method. For example Proof of Work consumes an awful lot of electricity and in turn pollutes the environment, some methods are more susceptible to 51% attacks. This is almost a separate topic in itself

The fundamental idea behind a coin however is not always dependent on what consensus protocol you use. For example ethereum is planning to switch from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake but their value proposition will not change in any meaningful way.

Much like a business, a coin/token can bring real value to society. Take XRP as an example, while it has many flaws in my opinion, they are looking to improve cross border settlements. They can do what it takes SWIFT 3-5 days to do in 3-5 seconds.

I must add, I think the majority of coins are what are called 'promise coins' in that they promise to solve certain problems but never end up doing anything apart from being a wildly volatile asset. I would compare them to the many many startups that fail.

Yes I agree, people think that Bitcoin will be used as a currency for day to day purchases but this will simply never happen.

Government issued currency, FIAT, is based on trust. In my opinion since we moved away from the gold standard it has allowed for the widespread printing and abusing of currencies. This is why we see wages stagnating while the costs of houses etc have skyrocketed. There is an interesting website with some eye opening charts that you may find interesting - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

 

[SerenityNigh]

Different methods of consensus protocols? They all achieve the same outcome - consensus - but there are pros/cons to each method. For example Proof of Work consumes an awful lot of electricity and in turn pollutes the environment, some methods are more susceptible to 51% attacks. This is almost a separate topic in itself

The fundamental idea behind a coin however is not always dependent on what consensus protocol you use. For example ethereum is planning to switch from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake but their value proposition will not change in any meaningful way.

Much like a business, a coin/token can bring real value to society. Take XRP as an example, while it has many flaws in my opinion, they are looking to improve cross border settlements. They can do what it takes SWIFT 3-5 days to do in 3-5 seconds.

I must add, I think the majority of coins are what are called 'promise coins' in that they promise to solve certain problems but never end up doing anything apart from being a wildly volatile asset. I would compare them to the many many startups that fail.

Yes I agree, people think that Bitcoin will be used as a currency for day to day purchases but this will simply never happen.

Government issued currency, FIAT, is based on trust. In my opinion since we moved away from the gold standard it has allowed for the widespread printing and abusing of currencies. This is why we see wages stagnating while the costs of houses etc have skyrocketed. There is an interesting website with some eye opening charts that you may find interesting - https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

LOL, i am not reading gold standard rubbish. We moved away from the gold standard long before we “moved away from the gold standard.” Not everyone likes Niall Ferguson but he has a good book on this matter.