Roberto Martinez discussion

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hullefc said:
But isn't that the crux of the matter. 'Building' which takes time with the resources you have or buy in. We seem to be very effective defensive unit away from home with a 'defensive plan'. Sit tight with 2 defensive midfielders, and Barkley dropping a bit deeper and when we get the ball, move it though the midfield towards the attack, with a fullback or both bombing on. And then playing it in the oppositions half to create chances and score goals. 12 goals in 12 aways and half them clean sheets, one defeat drawn 7 and won 4.

Martinez and the players are finding it difficult to replicate our away defensiveness at home. In a way the debate has now become how do we start winning at home. Do we play too gung-ho at home and should just sit back and absorb pressure and hit teams on the counter? Should we as the home team take the game to the opposition and go at them? Martinez has tried to make us more solid at the back with Robles, Coleman, Jags, Mori and Oviedo and we have looked more solid, having conceded 1 in 4 games.

Martinez is building a young squad that can compete and it will take time as inconsistency is the hallmark of being a young player. Whether that is those playing in goal, at the back in midfield or attack.

It would be very hard to find a 'handbook of football expertry' that would show how any particular team, with any set of players, young, old and indifferent, injured or not injured, playing in this or that position, should be achieving this or that. Whether a team'squad is 'under achieving or over achieving' is a big statement to make.
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This is a thoughtful post. I would just add that defending deep and counter-attacking isn't really an option when teams show up as historically negative as West Brom did, for instance, and even then, we were unlucky not to win. When a team is that determined to park the bus, any side would struggle to break them down. Look at Barca against Chelsea a few years back. Mourinho has won multiple champions leagues essentially doing this. Pulis has built a career out of training mutant League 1 ogres into standing their ground. It's effective, and difficult to counter. We can all, with hindsight, suggest alternative substitutions or bemoan the lack of a "plan B," but we should also acknowledge that its often not quite so simple.
 
bluewally said:
I know this comes up all the time but spurs have a young team and don't seem to suffer the same inconsistency. What's the difference?
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Are you saying Pochettino is a good manager? I couldn't agree more. Spurs fans didn't think he was good last year as they were calling for his scalp. What's the difference? Different players for a kick off. Pochettino sets them up differently? Different experience players in different positions? Different goalkeeper? There are a number of differences.
 
abelard said:
Congratulations on sacking Howard Kendall the year before he went on to win the title
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For every Howard Kendall there are 20 Mike Walkers. I would be very wary of giving over 3 seasons to someone who looks to have a squad as talented as ours in the bottom half. Spurs are not far ahead of us in terms of quality yet compare the progress of them under Pochettino to that of our "progress" under Roberto and it's night and day.
 
BlueToff said:
Fair enough on the first point I take that on board.

As for the second, no, Coleman has plenty of time to get to the ball and stem the danger but he allows it to trickle down the line and their winger gets to it and then Coleman makes the block.

Not a terrible mistake but again it shows that it isn't just the manager - Coleman made that decision, not Martinez. Just as McCarthy and Lukaku both then completely failed to do the tasks the manager had set them to do at the corner...
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You're pretty much arguing against yourself here mate.

Nobody. Literally nobody, is saying it's just the manager's fault. You keep reiterating that point, but nobody is contradicting you. Of course the players are to blame, the board if you want to go higher, some have even blamed the fans. What many, many, many people are saying though, is that the manager is responsible for the team he puts out, the tactics he uses, and how closely the players follow his instructions.

The amount of times we switch off at a corner tells me that either we don't work on it enough, or the players aren't remotely bothered what the manager tells them to do. There's no excuse for it happening repeatedly, but it does. Is Martinez directly responsible for Coleman and McCarthy not doing their job on saturday? No. Is he directly responsible for Aaron Lennon anticipating a cross field pass and slotting against Stoke 7 days earlier? No. Should he be credited/criticised as fit for those two things as the manager of this football team. Yes.
 
abelard said:
This is a thoughtful post. I would just add that defending deep and counter-attacking isn't really an option when teams show up as historically negative as West Brom did, for instance, and even then, we were unlucky not to win. When a team is that determined to park the bus, any side would struggle to break them down. Look at Barca against Chelsea a few years back. Mourinho has won multiple champions leagues essentially doing this. Pulis has built a career out of training mutant League 1 ogres into standing their ground. It's effective, and difficult to counter. We can all, with hindsight, suggest alternative substitutions or bemoan the lack of a "plan B," but we should also acknowledge that its often not quite so simple.
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The WBA in particular. They had their 4 defenders within the width 18 yard box and their flank players very deep in effect 6 across the back. Martinez mixed it up throughout the game 'plan b,c,d,etc' with players moving around a lot e.g Jags played more like an inside right than CB most of the second half. It is not quite so simple as 'to throw this sub or that sub on and they change the game' sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
 
hullefc said:
Are you saying Pochettino is a good manager? I couldn't agree more. Spurs fans didn't think he was good last year as they were calling for his scalp. What's the difference? Different players for a kick off. Pochettino sets them up differently? Different experience players in different positions? Different goalkeeper? There are a number of differences.
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I'd be surprised if there was a massive difference in the lineup they made the following signings from May to present; Kevin Wimmer, Trippier, Alderweireld, N'Jie, Son.

Things have just clicked - they look to be playing a higher pressing game, watching them against city last week the amount of players they had pushing up the pitch was ridiculous. We used to do that, right now I see more of our players backing off then pressing the ball.
 
chazzle_dazzle said:
Your point was 1 goal conceded in 4 games. Not X amount of goals scored in games.

You bend any statistic towards your aim and agenda - someone talks about the last 2 seasons, you bring in Martinez's first season. So in this case, you talk about 1 goal conceded in 4 - I talk about how many goals we have conceded at home. How many clean sheets can you remember before then??

Its not a worthless stat as our home form is pathetic, but carry on banging the 1 in 4 stat drum - because it helps.
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It's a fair point entirely to say we are getting on top of this and the needle is stuck:

We have conceded 7 goals in the last 7 games.

Goals conceded in the rest of the PL in that time:

Leicester 4
Spurs 5
Arsenal 5
City 8
United 8
S'ton 1
West Ham 8
Liverpool 14
Watford 8
Stoke 13
Chelsea 7
Palace 25
WBA 8
Bournemouth 10
Swansea 10
Norwich 18
Newcastle 15
Sunderland 12
Villa 12

...which puts us 5th best on that list.

As said. Time to get the needle off that stick groove, or more preferably change the record.
 
chazzle_dazzle said:
If so arl ginge has a win percentage of 41%.

http://www.premierleague.com/en-gb/clubs/managers/profile.career.html/david-moyes
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th


Cheers !!
 
davek said:
It's a fair point entirely to say we are getting on top of this and the needle is stuck:

We have conceded 7 goals in the last 7 games.

Goals conceded in the rest of the PL in that time:

Leicester 4
Spurs 5
Arsenal 5
City 8
United 8
S'ton 1
West Ham 8
Liverpool 14
Watford 8
Stoke 13
Chelsea 7
Palace 25
WBA 8
Bournemouth 10
Swansea 10
Norwich 18
Newcastle 15
Sunderland 12
Villa 12

...which puts us 5th best on that list.

As said. Time to get the needle off that stick groove, or more preferably change the record.
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*applauds*

Stick a fork in this thread. It's done.
 
davek said:
It's a fair point entirely to say we are getting on top of this and the needle is stuck:

We have conceded 7 goals in the last 7 games.

Goals conceded in the rest of the PL in that time:

Leicester 4
Spurs 5
Arsenal 5
City 8
United 8
S'ton 1
West Ham 8
Liverpool 14
Watford 8
Stoke 13
Chelsea 7
Palace 25
WBA 8
Bournemouth 10
Swansea 10
Norwich 18
Newcastle 15
Sunderland 12
Villa 12

...which puts us 5th best on that list.

As said. Time to get the needle off that stick groove, or more preferably change the record.
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Ok again you are changing the statistics to suit what you want, what about the last 70 games if that works hahaha. You have gone from talking about his last 3 seasons win percentage to 1 in 4, to 7 games.

Tell you what in them 7 games (i presume you are talking prem) we have won 2. We have a better defensive record in them game because martinez was FORCED to make changes at the back - Did you see Martinez dropping Howard?!? probably won't get an answer to that though.

No point even trying to have debate really - your view is right and you don't see anything else for a balanced debate. Carry on bending anything you want to your outlook.

At least with some pro-martinez people on here you can have a debate with and they see points.
 
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