Roberto Martinez discussion

[Tubey]

We've scored over 60 goals playing that exact system this season...

The area we need to improve is obviously in defence, and I think Martinez since the turn of the year has shown a willingness to try and change that and made improvements. Backed up by 2 clean sheets from the last 3 league games.

Yes but unfortunately football involves attack and defence. We're 11th and hardly strung two results together all season.

"But we won the shots" doesn't cut it, and is actually the biggest problem. We have a manager who decides every game should be a "we'll score one more than you" affair, so when you get a side defending and countering, we don't score and we don't defend.

If this isn't a textbook example of a manager at fault, I don't know what actually would be. Seriously, if Martinez doesn't carry the can for our underperformance this season, can someone give me a hypothetical example where a manager actually would be culpable?

 

[BlueToff]

Stoke lost their third game 3-0 when we beat them away. They’ve struggled without Shawcross and the game highlighted why Mark Hughes should never enter Goodison Park employed by the our club.


Southampton away, City and Spurs, were all games that the opposition came out to beat us. They’re also sides good enough to enjoy possession of the football while doing so. This suits Everton perfectly because we actually have players who are very good on the counter attack. It also means we don’t have too much of the ball and therefore stops us playing our way in to trouble.


That’s why IMO we’re better away from home, because sides come out to try and beat us and we can counter them. It’s nothing to do with the Goodison Crowd booing the players why we’re poor at home, it’s that sides will sit a little deeper and wait for us to play our way in to trouble and then hit us in the massive gaps we seem to leave. You can see it in the game as soon as we lose possession it’s almost like the opposition can run to our goal and have a shot before we get the ball back.


I’ve said it before but last season we had the same issues, only last season Martinez did try to change things to fix it. And he was never able to and the football was dire and results didn’t really change. This year he’s almost just said ‘forget it’ and stuck to his guns for attacking hoping we outscore the opposition. It’s not working but the games are certainly more exciting for the neutrals. Frustrating for Evertonians though.

I do agree that we had that issue, but watch our games at home since the turn of the year... that hasn't happened. I cite the turn of the year as I think the Stoke game was the obvious turning point in defensive strategy from Martinez.

Spurs, we stayed tight and rode our luck in the first half, but overall it was a good performance.

City at home was great all-round, bar one counter-attack from them.

Swansea at home - first time this season that we reverted to the Everton of last season for the first half and we were poor. Second half much better but couldn't get over the line - again down to Lukaku and Coleman missing sitters (the players, not the manager)...

Newcastle at home - really good performance but Newcastle were crap. Still a fine effort.

WBA - Their goal came from a mistake from Coleman attempting to steward the ball out of play (nothing at all to do with RM's style), and then McCarthy, Mori and Rom all failing to do simple tasks at the corner. They had one or two counters but didn't exactly 'hit massive gaps'. How we didn't get a goal is just one of those things, ultimately, as frustrating as it is.

 

[BlueToff]

Now i do agree to a point about this - however changes where forced upon Martinez based on injuries, we have no way of knowing if he would have kept Howard in goal (and Stones in defence) and if we would have continued down the route of conceding anytime someone came near our goal hahaha.

True, though I do think the issue is Howard rather than Stones.

The defence as a whole looks much better with a goalkeeper they have a semblance of confidence in.

I've said many times that I won't defend RM over Howard. It was mental to have him in for so long.

 

[BlueToff]

Yes but unfortunately football involves attack and defence. We're 11th and hardly strung two results together all season.

"But we won the shots" doesn't cut it, and is actually the biggest problem. We have a manager who decides every game should be a "we'll score one more than you" affair, so when you get a side defending and countering, we don't score and we don't defend.

If this isn't a textbook example of a manager at fault, I don't know what actually would be. Seriously, if Martinez doesn't carry the can for our underperformance this season, can someone give me a hypothetical example where a manager actually would be culpable?

I know 'we won the shots' won't cut it, but I think we've shown the signs overall to be confident that we can get to the level we aspire to be at. This season, probably not, but it isn't a complete right off and is still very much in the balance heading into the last dozen games.

 

[abelard]

Building an effective defensive core that works well together takes time, and patience. Moyes is re-imagined now as a Scotch Pulis (largely because of the quality of Martinez's first season, and the clear attacking improvement he's brought, which we all now obviously take for granted). But go back and look at how many seasons it took Moyes before we stopped conceding more than 40 each year. We rely more than most teams on young players, who are more prone to making errors, and whose form tends to be inconsistent. This is normal, if incompatible with the short attention-span of the Sky Sports generation. It's not a coincidence that the defence has weakened this year with so many senior players - Coleman, Baines, Jagielka, McCarthy et al out injured for so long - and with Howard clearly past it. Even Besic, young, and learning, would have added stability had he been able to stay fit longer. Stones, Galloway, and Funes Mori, who has made a very difficult transition far more quickly and capably than was fair to expect, are young and inexperienced. It takes time. Being a smart club means being a patient club.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

True, though I do think the issue is Howard rather than Stones.

The defence as a whole looks much better with a goalkeeper they have a semblance of confidence in.

I've said many times that I won't defend RM over Howard. It was mental to have him in for so long.

Yep - think that was one of the decisions which got to me more then some others. I do think he has been given a little bit of breathing space due to the injury to Howard. Not suggesting Stones was an issue, think the lad needed to be taken out of the heat a little bit though.

We will never know if we would have continued conceding - one thing i will say is that i don't think Howard would have been dropped barring injury.

 

[BlueToff]

Yep - think that was one of the decisions which got to me more then some others. I do think he has been given a little bit of breathing space due to the injury to Howard. Not suggesting Stones was an issue, think the lad needed to be taken out of the heat a little bit though.

We will never know if we would have continued conceding - one thing i will say is that i don't think Howard would have been dropped barring injury.

Hmm, I half agree on the Howard been dropped.

I think Martinez was at the stage after the Swansea game (the last time Howard played) that he knew how difficult it would be to keep him in after that so fresh in everyone's minds. So I think he was ready to drop him, but still needed the final persuasion of an injury to get it done - which shouldn't have been the case.

 

[Tubey]

I know 'we won the shots' won't cut it, but I think we've shown the signs overall to be confident that we can get to the level we aspire to be at. This season, probably not, but it isn't a complete right off and is still very much in the balance heading into the last dozen games.

This is almost solely because teams like us and Chelsea have underperformed so badly that it has congested the league table.

With a squad of our quality, it's almost impossible to imagine finishing bottom half ever, yet we have a possibility of that occurring two years on the spin.

The concern is that if this isn't correct quickly, we lose our standing permanently. Chelsea can afford a one-off, we can't - and I fear we're looking at an exodus this summer.

And just think; if Martinez is this bad with a group of players like this, imagine him without Lukaku/Barkley/Stones et al. Terrifying.

We're one or two seasons away from not just being a posh Wigan, but actual Wigan, and I can't see any of the signs you're mentioning here of anything different. Without Lukaku this season and an average number 9 instead, we could very easily be in a bad, bad way.

To be at the level we aspire to be, we need to attack and defend. Martinez seemingly only knows what one of those things is, and is inconsistent at the other.

 

[Little Ralphy]

Haha no mate actually I write match reports and the like and believe it or not do pretty well for myself. But yeh, I obviously don't have an understanding of the game.


I am pro-Martinez, and I'm standing by him.


I also admit when he's got things wrong but I don't see that many flaws in his ideas or style of play. There are some glaring ones, like Howard staying in, for example.


But that's the point as well - Martinez didn't instruct Oviedo to do that, neither did he instruct Del to do that. Just three days earlier, we had seen players punting the ball out of danger vs City. So, as much blame also has to be put to the players.


But no, blame it all on the manager.

We can agree to disagree there then mate, good luck to you, but we can all write about events without actually showing any actual deeper knowledge of what is happening.


Martinez does instruct Oviedo to do that, you saying he doesn't is what makes me question you. You realise the players train a lot right? And most of what they do on the training pitch is reflected in the games. It's not like a Sunday morning football match when you just pick the best 11 and hope they go out and win. At pretty much any level where there is money on the result, everything is trained for, drilled and instructed from the Manager and the coaching staff.

 

[Tony1985]

We didn't carry on attacking though?

Conceding those two goals (bare in mind there was still over what turned out to be 40 minutes left when we went 2 up) had nothing to do with us attacking at all? Their first was a long ball that Jagielka and Howard messed up on and their second, two minutes later, was an attack - not a counter attack I may add - that resulted in a deflected effort going in.

After that we held firm for 10 minutes or so of real pressure from them then we started attacking and got what should have been the winner.

Also, if RM had attempted to park the bus, which he did do in stoppage time before their final (wrongly awarded) goal, he'd have got battered for it.

Mate u have some valid points throughout this thread regarding Martinez but you need to take your martinez tinted specs off.

See @Little Ralphy's post, when your 2-0 at Stamford bridge you don't let your fullbacks carry on bombing forward trying to attack.

So what if it's 40 minutes of defending if we come away with a win?? Pulis defended a lead at Goodison for over 70 mins, it's easy to do if you do it properly, even if they'd scored a 2-1 win at Stamford bridge is still a good result.

If we would have defended properly and seen the game out it wouldn't have come down to the refs decision.

I'm still on the fence with Martinez but all the excuses are wearing a bit thin, it's like an excuse for everything except him taking responsibility.

 

[BlueToff]

This is almost solely because teams like us and Chelsea have underperformed so badly that it has congested the league table.

With a squad of our quality, it's almost impossible to imagine finishing bottom half ever, yet we have a possibility of that occurring two years on the spin.

The concern is that if this isn't correct quickly, we lose our standing permanently. Chelsea can afford a one-off, we can't - and I fear we're looking at an exodus this summer.

And just think; if Martinez is this bad with a group of players like this, imagine him without Lukaku/Barkley/Stones et al. Terrifying.

We're one or two seasons away from not just being a posh Wigan, but actual Wigan, and I can't see any of the signs you're mentioning here of anything different. Without Lukaku this season and an average number 9 instead, we could very easily be in a bad, bad way.

To be at the level we aspire to be, we need to attack and defend. Martinez seemingly only knows what one of those things is, and is inconsistent at the other.

True to an extent but we do have Lukaku et all.

And, while there will always be that risk, the Premier League TV money does mean that we don't have to sell.

I feel we may lose one key youngster this summer, and tbh I think anything but CL would have seen us lose one anyway. However, I don't fear a mass exodus, especially if we can get into the top 7.

If we finish 11th or below, obviously it's going to be very tough.
But we'll have to wait and see.

 

[BlueToff]

We can agree to disagree there then mate, good luck to you, but we can all write about events without actually showing any actual deeper knowledge of what is happening.


Martinez does instruct Oviedo to do that, you saying he doesn't is what makes me question you. You realise the players train a lot right? And most of what they do on the training pitch is reflected in the games. It's not like a Sunday morning football match when you just pick the best 11 and hope they go out and win. At pretty much any level where there is money on the result, everything is trained for, drilled and instructed from the Manager and the coaching staff.

Yes, of course the manager takes the training etc etc and sets the tactics.

But... he is not the one who personally makes the decision in Oveido's mind. He doesn't have some mystic control over Oviedo to make him run 60 yards up field. He doesn't make Lukaku miss that sitter against Norwich or Coleman that sitter against Swansea.

He's responsible up to a point but i'm not having that the players, on occasion, aren't as equally to blame.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

Hmm, I half agree on the Howard been dropped.

I think Martinez was at the stage after the Swansea game (the last time Howard played) that he knew how difficult it would be to keep him in after that so fresh in everyone's minds. So I think he was ready to drop him, but still needed the final persuasion of an injury to get it done - which shouldn't have been the case.

yep... 100%.

 

[BlueToff]

Mate u have some valid points throughout this thread regarding Martinez but you need to take your martinez tinted specs off.

See @Little Ralphy's post, when your 2-0 at Stamford bridge you don't let your fullbacks carry on bombing forward trying to attack.

So what if it's 40 minutes of defending if we come away with a win?? Pulis defended a lead at Goodison for over 70 mins, it's easy to do if you do it properly, even if they'd scored a 2-1 win at Stamford bridge is still a good result.

If we would have defended properly and seen the game out it wouldn't have come down to the refs decision.

I'm still on the fence with Martinez but all the excuses are wearing a bit thin, it's like an excuse for everything except him taking responsibility.

fair enough, not looking for excuses as much as valid reasons.

As I've said, Martinez just can't be responsible for all the mistakes the players make. He's responsible for the mistakes in his tactics and subs and that's fine with me...

But, when your two most experienced players fail to deal with a simple ball over the top, I don't see how that can be down to the manager?

Anyway, we could go around in circles so let's just agree to disagree?

 

[Little Ralphy]

I do agree that we had that issue, but watch our games at home since the turn of the year... that hasn't happened. I cite the turn of the year as I think the Stoke game was the obvious turning point in defensive strategy from Martinez.


Spurs, we stayed tight and rode our luck in the first half, but overall it was a good performance.


City at home was great all-round, bar one counter-attack from them.


Swansea at home - first time this season that we reverted to the Everton of last season for the first half and we were poor. Second half much better but couldn't get over the line - again down to Lukaku and Coleman missing sitters (the players, not the manager)...


Newcastle at home - really good performance but Newcastle were crap. Still a fine effort.


WBA - Their goal came from a mistake from Coleman attempting to steward the ball out of play (nothing at all to do with RM's style), and then McCarthy, Mori and Rom all failing to do simple tasks at the corner. They had one or two counters but didn't exactly 'hit massive gaps'. How we didn't get a goal is just one of those things, ultimately, as frustrating as it is.

Spurs hammered us to be fair and we were really lucky. But people don’t tend to talk about those games, only the ‘unlucky’ ones seem to count.


City at home, again, when 2-0 up and we have a corner why are we sending up the defenders? Why not keep more people back? It was a bit of magic from Aguero but Everton should have managed the game better and kept a solid core even when we had the corner. Then the counter doesn’t happen as we have players back to cover, instead of leaving a massive gap for Navas to exploit.


WBA didn’t need to hit the gaps. They got their goal early from a set piece which we’re also vulnerable from and then were confident enough in their ability to defend as evidenced by the two prior years in the same fixture and sat back and defended. It wasn’t just one of those things either, why we didn’t score, I’ve said this before in one of these threads, it’s because the manager didn’t adapt his game plan and try and stretch the game more to open up space. He just stuck with his like for like changes and expected something to change.


There are some managers that completely shut games down and then work really hard on set pieces and/or fitness to try and gain an advantage. Martinez is the opposite, he almost ‘goads’ teams in to playing an open game against us, and hoping he’ll outscore them. But sides realise they can counter this and that’s why we’re struggling, because they’re not falling for the open game