Roberto Martinez discussion

[BlueToff]

And that's why you want Martinez to stay in charge and all those who understand what they're watching don't. It's really that simple.

You don't have to park the bus to shut the game down, but you should reign your full backs in and keep a good shape defensively to ensure you don't leave massive gaps, or 1 on 1 situations for the opposition to exploit.

That's why Martinez' system is so flawed. He used the full back behind the winger to bomb on to give the opposition full back a decision to make, go wide with the full back or stop the winger cutting inside. If it works it can look great, but if it doesn't we've left a big gaping hole behind them.

On the other side he has the left sided player cut inside to try and ghost in to the middle and have the left full back play almost as a winger. Again, if it works great, but if it doesn't it means the two centre backs are hopelessly exposed.

Add to that we rarely put pressure on the ball and it gives good players the chance to pick out passes like Fabregas did.

Advocaat sussed this last season with a very poor Sunderland side when they beat us at Goodison. Manager's are on to the style of play, and all Martinez does to try and fix it, is change the players. Hoping that Lennon's work rate may solve it. When he signed Alcaraz he admitted as much, saying how he admires the South American defenders who can defend 1 on 1, man to man.

I understand what I'm watching. Believe it or not I'm paid to watch it as well.

Now, that doesn't mean that my opinion is in anyway more important than anyone elses, but it's my perspective.

Why is that why his system is so flawed? Again, it's not Martinez's fault - personally - that Oviedo lost possession, or that Del did later on.

That was my point - that all the blame can't be laid at the feet of the manager - or at least not by the people who understand what they're watching...

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

'We' as in the team.

He isn't responsible for everything, so he's right. The players are equally as responsible for us not finding the back of the net the other day, if not more so, for example.

And, back to a point I stress a lot - you don't see many top managers or managers that wish to be top ones openly admitting that they got something wrong. It's stupid to expect them to, especially with how quick the media would jump on it.

I agree with that mate, you don't see them coming out and admitting they got it wrong.

I do however think that his blind belief in his system is probably going to be his downfall though, mainly because he could have brought in someone to help on the skills he is obviously not as good with. In 10 years in management Martinez has the reputation (not a slag on the man) as a attacking possession based coach - but all his teams had a weak underbelly.

While he might not have to admit it publicly, getting someone in to help would at least reassure people he would be accepting his limitations as a manager.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

But the season isn't finished yet.

We could quite easily finish 5th. We could just as easily finish 11th.

12 games left, plus whatever happens in the cup. Let's just wait and see before writing it off, as that article does.

Just for balance - Not that i think we will, we are only 3 points off 14th - we could finish worse then 11th. My gut is we will finish 10th/11th/12th this season, which for me will be a big disappointment.

 

[BlueToff]

I agree with that mate, you don't see them coming out and admitting they got it wrong.

I do however think that his blind belief in his system is probably going to be his downfall though, mainly because he could have brought in someone to help on the skills he is obviously not as good with. In 10 years in management Martinez has the reputation (not a [Poor language removed] on the man) as a attacking possession based coach - but all his teams had a weak underbelly.

While he might not have to admit it publicly, getting someone in to help would at least reassure people he would be accepting his limitations as a manager.

I'd agree with you entirely except I do think he's shown a willingness to change.

I cite Southampton and Stoke away this season as perfect examples, while we also looked better at City and against Spurs just after new year.

We're getting there - slower than many would like, including myself - but I think the signs of improvement and that we can get back to where we think this squad is capable of going.

Personally, I'd love Reidy to be brought back in similar to how Royale has been. Just to add a bit of grit and steel to the entire set-up, more than just the squad. Winning is infectious and all that.

 

[Charles Hawtrey]

I saw this comment on another site.Popcorn for those of us who are not fully paid up members of the pro Martinez club.A lot of home truths spoken here imo.

All managers play favorites - Moyes and Neville in Midfield? He was likely the first name on the sheet every week. That issue just doesn't change, so why focus on that. The bigger Martinez issue is that despite the attractiveness of the playing style his approach is still 2 dimensional and plan B seems beyond him.
Perhaps if you believe so much in your approach you are conceited enough to think you don't need a plan B.

 

[BlueToff]

Just for balance - Not that i think we will, we are only 3 points off 14th - we could finish worse then 11th. My gut is we will finish 10th/11th/12th this season, which for me will be a big disappointment.

Oh yes I know mate - but as I said that's just the difference that one win can make - with how close the league is in mid-table/european places.

I put 11th as that's where we are now, though obviously lower could be a possibility. But I like to try and stay on the positive side and six points isn't huge, either way.

 

[Little Ralphy]

I understand what I'm watching. Believe it or not I'm paid to watch it as well.

Now, that doesn't mean that my opinion is in anyway more important than anyone elses, but it's my perspective.

Why is that why his system is so flawed? Again, it's not Martinez's fault - personally - that Oviedo lost possession, or that Del did later on.

That was my point - that all the blame can't be laid at the feet of the manager - or at least not by the people who understand what they're watching...

Fair play to you if you get paid to watch it, statistics or something I'd guess, because you show very little understanding of the actual game in your posts, same with the other posters who are very Pro-Martinez.

It's Martinez' fault that Oviedo is making that run forward when we are 2-0 up. If Oviedo doesn't make that run we don't concede that goal. Simple as that. If Deuolfeu or whoever runs down a blind alley when 2-0 up, they just turn around and come back. The side should always keep that solid defensive shape, you don't have to sit back and park the bus at all, just stay solid and don't give any space away.

They'd done the hard work to get 2-0 up, and threw it away because there is zero game management coming from the Manager.

 

[Tubey]

I understand what I'm watching. Believe it or not I'm paid to watch it as well.

Now, that doesn't mean that my opinion is in anyway more important than anyone elses, but it's my perspective.

Why is that why his system is so flawed? Again, it's not Martinez's fault - personally - that Oviedo lost possession, or that Del did later on.

That was my point - that all the blame can't be laid at the feet of the manager - or at least not by the people who understand what they're watching...

I think most people can see that the players are generally doing exactly what are asked of them. There isn't a situation here where anyone is unsure as to what the plan actually is.

The problem is that it isn't working. So who's fault is that - the players who are only doing what is asked of them (yes, they'll be dispossessed, but ultimately if they're dispossessed in a stupid area it's because they're told to run the ball and pass out from the back), or is the manager who is imposing the system that isn't working?

Yes, you have underperforming or just plain crap players on the pitch, but ultimately Martinez has it in his power to remove those players - and doesn't.

For me, it's at the very least 80% the fault of the manager here. We have very talented players (that's proven; we have a spine of £30m+ players throughout the first team here), playing in a system that hamstrings them massively.

 

[Little Ralphy]

I'd agree with you entirely except I do think he's shown a willingness to change.


I cite Southampton and Stoke away this season as perfect examples, while we also looked better at City and against Spurs just after new year.


We're getting there - slower than many would like, including myself - but I think the signs of improvement and that we can get back to where we think this squad is capable of going.


Personally, I'd love Reidy to be brought back in similar to how Royale has been. Just to add a bit of grit and steel to the entire set-up, more than just the squad. Winning is infectious and all that.

Stoke lost their third game 3-0 when we beat them away. They’ve struggled without Shawcross and the game highlighted why Mark Hughes should never enter Goodison Park employed by the our club.


Southampton away, City and Spurs, were all games that the opposition came out to beat us. They’re also sides good enough to enjoy possession of the football while doing so. This suits Everton perfectly because we actually have players who are very good on the counter attack. It also means we don’t have too much of the ball and therefore stops us playing our way in to trouble.


That’s why IMO we’re better away from home, because sides come out to try and beat us and we can counter them. It’s nothing to do with the Goodison Crowd booing the players why we’re poor at home, it’s that sides will sit a little deeper and wait for us to play our way in to trouble and then hit us in the massive gaps we seem to leave. You can see it in the game as soon as we lose possession it’s almost like the opposition can run to our goal and have a shot before we get the ball back.


I’ve said it before but last season we had the same issues, only last season Martinez did try to change things to fix it. And he was never able to and the football was dire and results didn’t really change. This year he’s almost just said ‘forget it’ and stuck to his guns for attacking hoping we outscore the opposition. It’s not working but the games are certainly more exciting for the neutrals. Frustrating for Evertonians though.

 

[davek]

One goal conceded in the past 4 games. This defensive debate is getting a bit old hat.

 

[BlueToff]

Fair play to you if you get paid to watch it, statistics or something I'd guess, because you show very little understanding of the actual game in your posts, same with the other posters who are very Pro-Martinez.

It's Martinez' fault that Oviedo is making that run forward when we are 2-0 up. If Oviedo doesn't make that run we don't concede that goal. Simple as that. If Deuolfeu or whoever runs down a blind alley when 2-0 up, they just turn around and come back. The side should always keep that solid defensive shape, you don't have to sit back and park the bus at all, just stay solid and don't give any space away.

They'd done the hard work to get 2-0 up, and threw it away because there is zero game management coming from the Manager.

Haha no mate actually I write match reports and the like and believe it or not do pretty well for myself. But yeh, I obviously don't have an understanding of the game.

I am pro-Martinez, and I'm standing by him.

I also admit when he's got things wrong but I don't see that many flaws in his ideas or style of play. There are some glaring ones, like Howard staying in, for example.

But that's the point as well - Martinez didn't instruct Oviedo to do that, neither did he instruct Del to do that. Just three days earlier, we had seen players punting the ball out of danger vs City. So, as much blame also has to be put to the players.

But no, blame it all on the manager.

 

[BlueToff]

I think most people can see that the players are generally doing exactly what are asked of them. There isn't a situation here where anyone is unsure as to what the plan actually is.

The problem is that it isn't working. So who's fault is that - the players who are only doing what is asked of them (yes, they'll be dispossessed, but ultimately if they're dispossessed in a stupid area it's because they're told to run the ball and pass out from the back), or is the manager who is imposing the system that isn't working?

Yes, you have underperforming or just plain crap players on the pitch, but ultimately Martinez has it in his power to remove those players - and doesn't.

For me, it's at the very least 80% the fault of the manager here. We have very talented players (that's proven; we have a spine of £30m+ players throughout the first team here), playing in a system that hamstrings them massively.

We've scored over 60 goals playing that exact system this season...

The area we need to improve is obviously in defence, and I think Martinez since the turn of the year has shown a willingness to try and change that and made improvements. Backed up by 2 clean sheets from the last 3 league games.

 

[DanEFC92]

One goal conceded in the past 4 games. This defensive debate is getting a bit old hat.

Quite the small sample size to declare that the defensive troubles are over.

V Carlisle, a dire Newcastle, Stoke and West Brom as well.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

One goal conceded in the past 4 games. This defensive debate is getting a bit old hat.

While i agree with that on the premise of the last 4 games, like you have said on numerous its not just about the last 4 games (or last 2 seasons).

All due respect we don't know how much of that has been forced upon Martinez with Howard being out - would Howard have continued in goal? I would suggest he would have.

1 goal in 4 games, yep - but we have conceded the most home goals in Europe this season.

 

[chazzle_dazzle]

We've scored over 60 goals playing that exact system this season...

The area we need to improve is obviously in defence, and I think Martinez since the turn of the year has shown a willingness to try and change that and made improvements. Backed up by 2 clean sheets from the last 3 league games.

Now i do agree to a point about this - however changes where forced upon Martinez based on injuries, we have no way of knowing if he would have kept Howard in goal (and Stones in defence) and if we would have continued down the route of conceding anytime someone came near our goal hahaha.