Riots in Ukraine

[neil999]

...as are the constant references on this forum to the being wealthy is somehow unlawful or immoral. You can't have your cake and eat it too Stevon.

But...for those who want to really understand wealth disparity:

http://paulgraham.com/gap.html

'its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven'

or words to that effect...

 

[neil999]

I think everyone needs to think about it in real terms.

For Ukraine, read Wales. Unfortunately there is a huge divide in Wales, north and south as opposed to east and west Ukraine. The loons in Cardiff have took over like bad fascists.

Liverpool is Russia and were a bit chocka about right Welsh Nazis exporting their crap trabs and interbreeding ways to our ace, socially advanced way of living. We don't want our kids growing up asking for ice l ollies like some bad wools.

The Wirral is Crimea. Liverpool gave the Wirral over to Wales when it shed it of its L postcode but there's still loads of scousers living over there (for the easier women) and now Liverpool doesn't want to be staring over the river at Rhys and Dafydd and their bad adidas four stripe and love of Skol. The plazzies might moan about us but they defo don't want to be full Welsh so there's huge sympathy for the scouse way of life.

So we got to protect our ways. Hope this helps.

this is useless to me as im from bedford, i suppose luton could be wales...or the crimea or whatever,oh goodness

does this mean @EFCNIK is putin? possibly..

 

[rascal]

A shame you stopped reading at that point then mate, if you had continue reading you would have realised that the post you dismissed out of hand in a condescending way was actually a word for word article printed by a very informed and respected expert on russia

What was that part about ignorance again?...

It would appear that the guy having a pop at others for what he perceives as ignorance is actually the most ignorant of all lol

 

[SerenityNigh]

As a semi-related point, Bill, you're from the oil state in America. Why don't the US government lift the ban on exporting crude oil? You're the biggest oil producer in the world, and we have a situation where much of Europe is reliant upon a dubious regime for energy. That would seem a positive step for the bastions of free trade to make.

Don't think that's going to happen, unfortunately. I take it you read this recently from The Economist?

 

[SerenityNigh]

'its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven'

or words to that effect...

You might be slightly misrepresenting that

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Don't think that's going to happen, unfortunately. I take it you read this recently from The Economist?

I did. Was surprised that America was the largest oil producer. Fracking really is producing the goods.

 

[neil999]

You might be slightly misrepresenting that

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God
Ffrom wiki! close enough..

 

[SerenityNigh]

I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God
Ffrom wiki! close enough..

You got the quote correct, but I don't think it applies to the claim you're making. That's what I meant, although to suggest you misrepresented it also implies intent, which I do not think is part of the case. I simply think you've got this wrong.

Here is what @TX Bill wrote

...as are the constant references on this forum to the being wealthy is somehow unlawful or immoral. You can't have your cake and eat it too Stevon.

But...for those who want to really understand wealth disparity:

http://paulgraham.com/gap.html

Tex makes a few claims here. As I understand them,

1. Some are making the claim that wealth is immoral and poverty, likewise, is moral
2. There is no direct relationship between wealth and morality (i.e., there is no direct cause, even if it may be argued there is correlation)

'its easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven'

or words to that effect...

3. You refute Tex's claim
4. I can't tell if you're supporting the counterclaim, but it appears so; you seem to suggest that Jesus' claim relates morality with the lack of wealth

Well played response, except that Jesus is going on about a different thing, and so his comment really has nothing to do with your claim. You can tell much from the response of the disciples:

And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?”

Without wasting too much of your time writing it all in my response, it's worth reading the context here and here. In this story a "rich young ruler" asks what he must do to "have eternal life," and after some conversation Jesus remarks that it is very difficult for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, and instead it's easier to pass a camel through eye of a needle (which is, as I understand, humanly impossible), than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. Then Jesus comments that "with man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

The disciples, who are amazed at these comments, believe that wealth and morality are directly related, although their claim would be opposite (what I presume to be) yours:

5. Wealth implies morality; wealth implies the "blessing of God," and the blessing of God implies morality

Jesus' response is quite opposite: wealth implies nothing about morality, and indeed it's easier for a camel to enter the eye of a needle than for a wealthy man to enter "eternal life" (on his own; yet all things are possible with God).

I don't know exactly what claim Tex intends above, but it seems that there are three claims being made here in the context of the argument:

A. Wealth implies morality
B. Wealth implies immorality
C. Morality is independent of wealth

This simplifies quite a bit, but I think the claim Jesus is making, that you quote above, is C, which does not support your refutation of Tex. That's why I suggest you're misrepresenting that quote.

 

[magicjuan]

how about a rich Camel?

 

[peteblue]

What about the rich man that smokes camels....

 

[peteblue]

Remember, Jimmy Carter certified the "free and fair" elections in Venezuela years back and look what's happened since. From Chavez to Maduro, their people are paying for it.

It's incredible that one of the richest oil countries in the world is skint and currently falling to bits. It makes you wonder just how stupid these El Presidentes have to be to do this.........

 

[neil999]

@SerenityNigh all about interpretation isnt it, simplyfying it massively - billionaires exist while people starve

is it the billionaires fault? all down to how your interept everything isnt it..

 

[Billy Dean]

It's incredible that one of the richest oil countries in the world is skint and currently falling to bits. It makes you wonder just how stupid these El Presidentes have to be to do this.........

I can't speak for all 'El Presidentes" but in the case of Venezuela, the shape of the country in some aspects actually improved under Chavez (e.g. inflation reduced, masses lifted out of poverty). It was clearly no bed of roses, but was worse before Chavez.

 

[peteblue]

I can't speak for all 'El Presidentes" but in the case of Venezuela, the shape of the country in some aspects actually improved under Chavez (e.g. inflation reduced, masses lifted out of poverty). It was clearly no bed of roses, but was worse before Chavez.

And Maduro with the bird on his hat..... The place has so much oil it cost peanuts to fill up a tank of petrol, but the Bolivarian socialists haven't a clue how to run an economy.....I've no doubt that he and his many henchmen will do OK though......

 

[bluestevon]

An "expert?"

Bum Phillips said that an "expert was just an ordinary fella away from home."

But I digress.

Maybe I should learn to dismiss articles written by those who try to find fault from any place other than the actual source in a manner that less condescending and more derisory in tone. Unless I've completely read that comment wrong. Make no mistake. This is all on Putin. But since I'm from the West, I must "misunderstand" the situation here. Trust me, the ignorance about Vladimir Putin doesn't lie here.

If you believe it does, you're just not looking hard enough or don't care to look hard enough.

To quote the background of the expert i linked which you casually refuted - without finishing reading his article by your own words
Instead you seemed to read the first paragraph and dismiss the entire thing off as a piece of liberal hog wash, in a way not realizing that this type of blinkered ignorance over the root causes and the history of the entire situation in Ukraine and Crimea is a huge reason for the amount of clap trap being spouted by ill informed journalists, politicians and self proclaimed experts with no effective background in the area.

Anyways the information about the person whose article you dismissed on two occasions

Sir Rodric Braithwaite was educated at Christ’s College, University of Cambridge, where he achieved First Class Honours in Modern Languages. He went on to serve in HM Diplomatic Service, with postings in Jakarta, Warsaw, Moscow, Rome, Brussels (British delegation to the European Community) and Washington. Between 1984 and 1988 he served as a member of the Sherpa Team (preparing HM’s Government for the G7 Economic Summits), and from 1988-92 was HM Ambassador in Moscow. Other appointments included Foreign Policy Adviser to the Prime Minister, the Rt Hon. [now Sir] John Major, and Chairman of the Joint Intelligence Committee.
Sir Rodric has had a number of academic appointments, including time as a Visiting Fellow, All Souls College, University of Oxford; Honorary Fellow, Christ’s College, University of Cambridge; and as Visiting Fellow, Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars, Washington.

Other appointments include service, as Governor, English National Opera; Chairman, Royal Academy of Music; and he is a member, formerly Chairman, of the International Advisory Council, Moscow School of Political Studies; he is a member, and formerly Chairman, Programme Committee, Ditchley Foundation.

He was appointed Knight Grand Cross of the Order of St Michael and St George (GCMG) in 1994.

His books include:

• Across the Moscow River: The World Turned Upside Down. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press. 2002. pp. 371. ISBN 978-0-300-09496-1
• Moscow 1941: A City and Its People at War. New Haven, Conn.: Yale University Press. 2002. pp. 446. ISBN 978-1-86197-759-5
• Afgantsy: The Russians in Afghanistan, 1979–89. New York: Oxford University Press. 2011. pp. 417. ISBN 978-0-19-983265-1. Translations into Russian, Polish, Ukrainian, and Japanese

He makes regular contributions to The Financial Times, The Guardian, The Observer, The Sunday Times, The New Statesman, Prospect Magazine, The Evening Standard, and Survival.