Rewiring history..

[OldDominionBlue]

I'm sure originally there were a lot more pyramids too

Interestingly, at least one of these memorials is in a predominantly black church. The minister of the church at the turn of the century. It's a stained glass memorial to General Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson.

Before the war, Jackson taught a Sunday School class for black children. In that class he taught them, at risk to his liberty and possibly safety, to read. At the time in Virginia, it was illegal to teach blacks to read.

The minister's parents were Jackson's students. That is why he revered him enough to make a memorial to him in his church.

In your FT article a man calls Jackson one of the Eichmann's of his time. I understand the article has an agenda but I do think including that quote is over the top. I'm not sure Eichmann would have taught people of color to read.

Edit: isn't it time for the Gladstone statue in Manchester to be removed also?

 

[rascal]

Instead of tearing down the confederate statues, why not just put a description next to the statue explaining who they are, what they did, and let people make up their own mind?

 

[neil999]

Instead of tearing down the confederate statues, why not just put a description next to the statue explaining who they are, what they did, and let people make up their own mind?

interesting idea, but doesnt take away the reverance a statue offers

 

[orly]

I can understand that p.o.v. from the Liverpool black community though.

There's a few statues in town dedicated to some iffy local politicians that should be melted down

They are filling the Dock an extra 1/2m thick for the Joe Anderson statue

 

[orly]

Lots of history needs to be re-wired. It should be challenged, just like the scientific process. Historians argue over stuff all the time.

Really interesting point that, never thought about it that way

 

[OldDominionBlue]

Really interesting point that, never thought about it that way

The difference is science isn't, well shouldn't be, dictated by societal norms.

Something we take as perfectly legitimate, forward thinking and humanitarian could be looked at by our great grandchildren as absolutely ridiculous. Science should be if you do x to y you get a. Not, if you do x to y you get w because w fits my narrative or agenda better than z.

I do agree history, as we've been taught, may not be the exact story. There are locations in North America where remains, artifacts, etc have been found that completely call into question the "discovery" of North America. For example, there are basically ancient copper mines that have been exhausted Michigan. It is speculated, this copper was used in Europe during the Bronze age. Scientists came to that conclusion because of the purity level in the copper in relation to what was used in some of the recovered items.

 

[orly]

The difference is science isn't, well shouldn't be, dictated by societal norms.

Something we take as perfectly legitimate, forward thinking and humanitarian could be looked at by our great grandchildren as absolutely ridiculous. Science should be if you do x to y you get a. Not, if you do x to y you get w because w fits my narrative or agenda better than z.

I do agree history, as we've been taught, may not be the exact story. There are locations in North America where remains, artifacts, etc have been found that completely call into question the "discovery" of North America. For example, there are basically ancient copper mines that have been exhausted Michigan. It is speculated, this copper was used in Europe during the Bronze age. Scientists came to that conclusion because of the purity level in the copper in relation to what was used in some of the recovered items.

Depends - treatments in mental illness have changed massively in line with what is considered barbarism / cruelty, for example. Then you've got modern genetics.

 

[OldDominionBlue]

Depends - treatments in mental illness have changed massively in line with what is considered barbarism / cruelty, for example. Then you've got modern genetics.

Yes you are correct. I suppose I was looking at it more like, why does it rain? How do volcanoes work, etc as opposed to a Reich doctor measuring someone's skull, and matching their skin tone to a colour chart to decide if they are "aryan" or some other class.

 

[degsy]

Confederate statues shouldn't have been erected in the first place. Could you imagine the Germans trying to build Nazi statues in the 60s or 70s to celebrate their history. Unjust losers don't get to celebrate.

Only in America?

 

[davek]

They are filling the Dock an extra 1/2m thick for the Joe Anderson statue

There isn't enough bronze in the city to make a statue to scale for him.

 

[johnnydawg68]

Yes you are correct. I suppose I was looking at it more like, why does it rain? How do volcanoes work, etc as opposed to a Reich doctor measuring someone's skull, and matching their skin tone to a colour chart to decide if they are "aryan" or some other class.

I was thinking more than like in scientific theory, you start with a premise, and test it, and you continually test it if new information comes to light. History isn't something that is, or should be, written once and then accepted as fact forever.

New documents, new archeological findings change what we know about "history" all the time.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Wow! They should probably all go, except the one in MA for sheer contrariness.

Many of them are monuments at Civil War battle sites, graveyards, etc, and should stay. But most are in public spaces, like the one I can see from my office window that sits outside the Parish (County) Courthouse. Such as these serve no good purpose.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Interestingly, at least one of these memorials is in a predominantly black church. The minister of the church at the turn of the century. It's a stained glass memorial to General Thomas Jonathan "Stonewall" Jackson.

Before the war, Jackson taught a Sunday School class for black children. In that class he taught them, at risk to his liberty and possibly safety, to read. At the time in Virginia, it was illegal to teach blacks to read.

The minister's parents were Jackson's students. That is why he revered him enough to make a memorial to him in his church.

In your FT article a man calls Jackson one of the Eichmann's of his time. I understand the article has an agenda but I do think including that quote is over the top. I'm not sure Eichmann would have taught people of color to read.

Edit: isn't it time for the Gladstone statue in Manchester to be removed also?

Many of them should stay, as I mention above. And many of them should be removed. Irrespective of the contents of the article, the graphic depicts the issue fairly well; most of them (like the one at our Parish Courthouse) serve no useful purpose.

And more importantly, the issue of the monuments is not related to whether these people were good people. I've seen that argument before, and it's very weak. Taking down a monument of Lee or Jackson isn't a comment on the character of Lee or Jackson (although many will, unfortunately, conclude such in their ignorance.)

How many people in the West know that the swastika has a history of use pre-Nazi Germany? It's still relevant as a religious image in India and many Asia nations/cultures. And it was widely used in Europe for various uses (generally lumped into the "crosses" category of icon), even used for the Finnish Air Force until 1945. But of course, now the Swastika has a different meaning and it will take some time for the image of the swastika to be divorced from Nazi Germany and other Nazi groups. Confederate monuments are no different, and the sooner these are removed the sooner we approach a solution that allows cultural healing (and progress), if these are attainable.

 

[OldDominionBlue]

Many of them should stay, as I mention above. And many of them should be removed. Irrespective of the contents of the article, the graphic depicts the issue fairly well; most of them (like the one at our Parish Courthouse) serve no useful purpose.

And more importantly, the issue of the monuments is not related to whether these people were good people. I've seen that argument before, and it's very weak. Taking down a monument of Lee or Jackson isn't a comment on the character of Lee or Jackson (although many will, unfortunately, conclude such in their ignorance.)
How many people in the West know that the swastika has a history of use pre-Nazi Germany? It's still relevant as a religious image in India and many Asia nations/cultures. And it was widely used in Europe for various uses (generally lumped into the "crosses" category of icon), even used for the Finnish Air Force until 1945. But of course, now the Swastika has a different meaning and it will take some time for the image of the swastika to be divorced from Nazi Germany and other Nazi groups. Confederate monuments are no different, and the sooner these are removed the sooner we approach a solution that allows cultural healing (and progress), if these are attainable.

As far as whether they were good people I made no argument using that as to why they should stay. Or be taken down for that matter. Iwas merely telling a story that many, including yourself probably weren't aware of. I'm sorry it made you jump to the conclusion you had to defend yourself or your position.

I simply thought the individual in your article saying Jackson was essentially Eichmann carried things more than a little too far. I don't believe, and I'd say most objective people would agree, the two men aren't at all similar. I'd even think an objective journalist would attempt to find a quote to use that wasn't so patently ridiculous.

 

[BigBlueConk]

Back in the day I was good friends with a Spanish girl called Laura.

On one occasion, we were talking about Spanish history and what the kids learned at school in general.

So I asked her "What about that Sir Francis Drake?"

She looked blankly at me.
I went on to explain about the lad who sank your Armada, beat you all the way back home.
But only after he finished his Budweiser, packet of fags, sandwich and a game of bowls. Allegedly.

She continued to look blankly at me.
She had no idea the Spanish had a fleet of ships that regularly tried to bully the friendly Brits.
She had no idea who Francis Drake was.
Anyway, I touched her boob.