Rewiring history..

[johnnydawg68]

Posted somewhere this morning, regarding the erecting of the monuments. All monuments are symbolic. Removal is rewiring (nb not rewriting) i.e. taking away direct links into cultural histories, and their symbolism and representation, this tends to prevent questioning or examining historical events.
History is written by the victorious, allegedly, but everything is conquered at some point and changed. But that is natural development and progress, this all seems a bit agenda driven.

Lots of history needs to be re-wired. It should be challenged, just like the scientific process. Historians argue over stuff all the time.

 

[johnnydawg68]

There's a difference between the haunting relevance of Auschwitz in teaching and reminding us of the horrors of fascism and ethnic cleansing, and having actual statues in pride of place in towns which act as a rallying point for those who stile revere the concept of white supremacy and being traitors to their country of origin.

The historical artifacts only have value if they are significant in the lessons they teach, either positive or negative. A statue of Robert E. Lee does not teach us anything about what happened - it simply glorifies a white surpremacist traitor. Because that's what a statue does - glorifies.

Robert E. Lee himself opposed building public memorials to the rebellion, saying they would just keep open the war’s many wounds.

 

[magicjuan]

Well there's a difference. Auschwitz is a living reminder. A statue is a considered decision and act of creation and placement, and is by and large celebratory.

I would counter that's just semantics. Auschwitz is maintained as a reminder, living history that something happened, but it is celebrated by loons.
It is testament to mankind's capability for evil. And there are books.

 

[magicjuan]

There's a difference between the haunting relevance of Auschwitz in teaching and reminding us of the horrors of fascism and ethnic cleansing, and having actual statues in pride of place in towns which act as a rallying point for those who stile revere the concept of white supremacy and being traitors to their country of origin.

The historical artifacts only have value if they are significant in the lessons they teach, either positive or negative. A statue of Robert E. Lee does not teach us anything about what happened - it simply glorifies a white surpremacist traitor. Because that's what a statue does - glorifies.

There are statues of Rameses, a pharaoh known to have used slavery and forced labour. The annals of history show the achievements, throw in Khufu, Khafre and pyramids etc, to be outstanding, the reality of life undet these rulers far from it, genocidal, murderous, warmongering.
We've been selective in measuring historical morality.

 

[johnnydawg68]

I would counter that's just semantics. Auschwitz is maintained as a reminder, living history that something happened, but it is celebrated by loons.
It is testament to mankind's capability for evil. And there are books.

You are completely removing any context from the history of the American South. Confederate symbols have been used for years as reminders to African-Americans in the south about just what their place is.

Regarding Lee in particular:

"By glossing over the maintenance of slavery as the South’s overriding war aim, the proponents of what came to be called the Lee cult diverted attention from General Lee’s own record as a slave owner, and from any discussion of how the Lee family tree came to include African-Americans.

“There was a rebranding campaign that promoted a total fallacy about what the Civil War was about,” said Karen Finney, 50, a great-great-great grandniece of Robert E. Lee. Her mother, Mildred Lee, a social worker, is white; her father, Jim Finney, a civil rights lawyer, was black.

“It’s simple: my ancestor was a slave owner who fought to preserve slavery,” said Ms. Finney, who worked as a spokeswoman for Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign. “If his side had won, that system of enslavement would have included me as well. Supporters of the statues still want to persuade people they’re not about white supremacy. It’s time to bring the statues down.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/us/lee-family-confederate-monuments-legacy.html

 

[Tubey]

There are statues of Rameses, a pharaoh known to have used slavery and forced labour. The annals of history show the achievements, throw in Khufu, Khafre and pyramids etc, to be outstanding, the reality of life undet these rulers far from it, genocidal, murderous, warmongering.
We've been selective in measuring historical morality.

Yes, but despite not wanting to use the 'current year' argument, it's 2017 and the advancement of our civilisation means there's no harm to be gotten from leaving massive statues of a guy from over 3,000 years ago when compared to statues of things from the relatively recent past that still affect real societal issues today.

 

[larbert toffee]

You should be charged for that kind of talk I thus current climate.

You should be charged for the use of an entirely new language.

 

[magicjuan]

You are completely removing any context from the history of the American South. Confederate symbols have been used for years as reminders to African-Americans in the south about just what their place is.

Regarding Lee in particular:

"By glossing over the maintenance of slavery as the South’s overriding war aim, the proponents of what came to be called the Lee cult diverted attention from General Lee’s own record as a slave owner, and from any discussion of how the Lee family tree came to include African-Americans.

“There was a rebranding campaign that promoted a total fallacy about what the Civil War was about,” said Karen Finney, 50, a great-great-great grandniece of Robert E. Lee. Her mother, Mildred Lee, a social worker, is white; her father, Jim Finney, a civil rights lawyer, was black.

“It’s simple: my ancestor was a slave owner who fought to preserve slavery,” said Ms. Finney, who worked as a spokeswoman for Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign. “If his side had won, that system of enslavement would have included me as well. Supporters of the statues still want to persuade people they’re not about white supremacy. It’s time to bring the statues down.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/22/us/lee-family-confederate-monuments-legacy.html

On the contrary, I believe the statues and other things represent a fascism that grows again today, it needs highlighting by any and every means, you eradicate history, as ugly as it is, then you act in a fascist way.
This is all about supremacy and about people starting to think about the pepercussions of their behaviour. By ignoring the responsibility we have to highlight the injustices of the past we are in the position we're in now.

 

[magicjuan]

Yes, but despite not wanting to use the 'current year' argument, it's 2017 and the advancement of our civilisation means there's no harm to be gotten from leaving massive statues of a guy from over 3,000 years ago when compared to statues of things from the relatively recent past that still affect real societal issues today.

I get that completely, but there are deeper, living symbols of oppression in every breath that are ignored and we in the west, wherever on the ladder we sre, we suffer and benefit from it.
Perhaps we should focus on the balloons and barmpots pulling the strings first before we tackle statues.

 

[Khalekan]

*glares at Shankly statue*

I'd drag that down and smack it with the soles of my shoes.

I have a mate lives by Anfield and he has trained his dog to urinate on it every time he passes by

 

[Khalekan]

Is there any proof that Hitler only had one bollock.

Or that Himmler had none at all at all.

 

[davek]

I have a mate lives by Anfield and he has trained his dog to urinate on it every time he passes by

Spirit of Slashly.

I like it.

 

[SerenityNigh]

I'm sure originally there were a lot more pyramids too

 

[aazak]

I'm sure originally there were a lot more pyramids too

Wow! They should probably all go, except the one in MA for sheer contrariness.

 

[aazak]

*glares at Shankly statue*

I'd drag that down and smack it with the soles of my shoes.

Fair enough.

But we'll take it in and mind it afterwards like we did with the man himself.

Because we're not ****s.