Current Affairs Reports of shots outside UK Parliament

[Seanjd]

That is not what I said, though. What I said was that we as a society needed to progress, in order to make them irrelevant. That means having a more open, less corrupt and generally better society because then the claims of the jihadis are vastly weakened as a result. It doesnt mean surrendering or tolerating their worldview.

What we emphatically do not need to do is to stage some kind of crackdown that has no other effect than to create a better class of jihadi - which is what the crackdowns in Syria, the crackdowns in coalition-occupied Iraq, arguably the crackdown in France and certainly the repeated crackdowns in Gaza have done.

Yep - spot on.

 

[rascal]

The crux of the matter is that it's impossible to stop people committing atrocities like this, no matter what their faith, when they have no fear of death and actually embrace it.

That is the most dangerous person(s) that any security force can ever face.

How do you stop someone who wants to die ?

A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away. Why? Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

 

[Seanjd]

A long time ago, I was in Burma. My friends and I were working for the local government. They were trying to buy the loyalty of tribal leaders by bribing them with precious stones. But their caravans were being raided in a forest north of Rangoon by a bandit. So, we went looking for the stones. But in six months, we never met anybody who traded with him. One day, I saw a child playing with a ruby the size of a tangerine. The bandit had been throwing them away. Why? Well, because he thought it was good sport. Because some men aren't looking for anything logical, like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn.

Yes, but why? To commit a crime like the Westminster attack terrorist, to go on a killing spree knowing that you won't come out alive, you need to be very mentally ill and/or brainwashed.

 

[jal123]

Yes, but why? To commit a crime like the Westminster attack terrorist, to go on a killing spree knowing that you won't come out alive, you need to be very mentally ill and/or brainwashed.

It's a film quote

 

[Seanjd]

It's a film quote

I was gunna say - you've lived one cool life.

 

[peteblue]

Yes, but why? To commit a crime like the Westminster attack terrorist, to go on a killing spree knowing that you won't come out alive, you need to be very mentally ill and/or brainwashed.

You are beginning to understand.......

 

[Seanjd]

You are beginning to understand.......

Understand what?

 

[PhilM]

Yes, but why? To commit a crime like the Westminster attack terrorist, to go on a killing spree knowing that you won't come out alive, you need to be very mentally ill and/or brainwashed.

That's a reasonable Western perspective, however it does not consider some of the deep-rooted quasi-religious beliefs other people may hold.

For example, put simply Daesh's ideology is rooted in the eschatological view that after numerous defeats there'll be an apocalyptically victory.

This will be against the Romans, basically us in the West, so fighting and dying for their causes only fulfils their view that their prophecy will occur.

At this point the original caliphate will be reinstated and all the destructions of the infidels and their non-conformist ways. But...

... what people don't grasp is that this isn't simply against the West. Rather it encompasses all those who do not conform, including most Muslims.

So basically my point is that it's very difficult for many Westerners to grasp their motive because it is polar to our underpinning social model.

 

[peteblue]

Understand what?

Sorry, I was mistaken.....

 

[JonS]

Daily mail readers should have to pay a tax in order to be allowed to breed such is their stupidity

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...uslim-woman-seen-walking-attack.html#comments

They truly are the dregs of society

Have you read the article you quote? Though hardly journalism (making news out of twitter etc) it is for once a balanced article reporting that some people trolled the Muslim woman on social media but that others criticised the trolls.

 

[JonS]

I see yesterday brought out the blatant racists from their caves for a day.

The social media photo's of the woman walking past an injured person and using her phone apparently told some people "all they needed to know" about muslim people in general lol

She could have been letting her loved ones know she was safe, could have been calling an ambulance etc etc.....but no! she had a head scarf on and was not white skinned, so she apparently summed up muslim extremists everywhere.

No wonder some of them hate us!

I totally agree with you criticising all the people jumping to conclusions about the woman and agree that they were showing their predudices in their quickness to judge and jump to conclusions.

But please do not think that white people are alone in this. Prejudices exist in all communities. For instance very few Asians (both of the Indian subcontinent sort/parts or oriental parts) would be happy at their daughter dating or marrying a black man.

My opinion is that predudices are often WORSE in many other racial communties, though I think things are getting better as the young people mix and grow up together so hopefully it will lessen.

 

[Seanjd]

That's a reasonable Western perspective, however it does not consider some of the deep-rooted quasi-religious beliefs other people may hold.

For example, put simply Daesh's ideology is rooted in the eschatological view that after numerous defeats there'll be an apocalyptically victory.

This will be against the Romans, basically us in the West, so fighting and dying for their causes only fulfils their view that their prophecy will occur.

At this point the original caliphate will be reinstated and all the destructions of the infidels and their non-conformist ways. But...

... what people don't grasp is that this isn't simply against the West. Rather it encompasses all those who do not conform, including most Muslims.

So basically my point is that it's very difficult for many Westerners to grasp their motive because it is polar to our underpinning social model.

It's a fundamentalist, very radical take on Islam. It is believed by a small number of people who have been brainwashed because certain things have meant that they are easily brainwashed; whether that be extreme poverty, grief or something which has meant their life needs resolving in some way. The people doing the brainwashing are power hungry and driven by the same mental complexities shared by dictators.

 

[Toast]

Question time on bbc1 in a mo will be highly charged.

Hope the panel is a good un.

 

[tsubaki]

It's a fundamentalist, very radical take on Islam. It is believed by a small number of people who have been brainwashed because certain things have meant that they are easily brainwashed; whether that be extreme poverty, grief or something which has meant their life needs resolving in some way. The people doing the brainwashing are power hungry and driven by the same mental complexities shared by dictators.

It isn't brainwashing, at least not in the traditional sense.

The rise of fundamentalist / "back to original Islam" types is almost a cliche in Islamic history - if you look at Muslim Spain for instance, you have the initial Umayyad conquest, which was followed by vast wealth, which was followed by a weakening of faith and society, which was followed by the replacement of that regime by fundamentalists (the Almoravids), which was followed by vast wealth, which was followed by a weakening of faith and society, which was followed by the replacement of that regime by fundamentalists (the Almohads), which was followed by vast wealth, which was followed by a weakening of faith and society, which was followed by the reconquista. Such is the esteem in which the Prophet and the first generation of Muslims are held that its easy to hold them up against a current ruler and see all the latter's faults in terms of following God's guidance.

All that has happened this time is that the fundamentalists have been artificially boosted - beyond anything seen before - by being key allies of the West. For all their anti-Western rhetoric, the reality is that Wahhabists have consistently sided with and been supported by the dominant Western powers of the day - first us, and then the Yanks - in exchange for access to their oil. We (and the Yanks) actually spent nearly a hundred years encouraging the feudal / religious side of Arab life in opposition to the nationalist / modernist side; hence why even after 9/11 we have spent far more time going after secular Arab regimes (and threatening Shia regimes) than actually dealing with the people who attacked us.

Combine that with their almost unimaginable wealth, a world that is even now largely at peace and modern communications technology and they both have no reason to change their views and have the means to spread those views worldwide. Of course, those views are largely daft - for instance its hard to believe in the sanctity of a belief system that trashes the house that the Prophet was born in whilst also turning Mecca into something akin to Disneyland - and as you say it is only something that usually gets traction in the minds of the rejected and the criminal, but it is enough to tip some people over the edge and into idiocy, as we saw on Wednesday.

(edit) Of course, the irony is that its Wahhabi intolerance that mitigates against the success of revivalist Islamic movements - for instance, if IS hadn't started genociding Shias, Yazidis, and Christians then they would probably be in Baghdad now.

 

[tadao]

Question time on bbc1 in a mo will be highly charged.

Hope the panel is a good un.

It wasn't.