Current Affairs Race wars, neo-nazis and other unpleasantness

[Harryflashman]

London riots 2011

The average custodial sentence was 16.8 months - more than four times the average term handed down by magistrates' courts for similar offences.

There were many striking cases: a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water; a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream; a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.
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There are similar stories from the poll tax and 80’s riots , it’s not new .

 

[GrandOldTeam]

You've gone full Davek

Mitigation is used during sentencing

The difference here to what you're quoting is this is violent disorder and/or rioting involving 3 or 12 or more people

They are rushing things through. Swift . The legal system is there to restore order and peace

That's how the law works

The rule of law is a foundational principle stating that everyone, including the government, is subject to the law. It ensures that laws are applied equally and fairly.

We've not got the details yet so we won't know. As I said as deserved as some sentences will be, it leaves an unnerving feeling around inconsistency/state agenda.

 

[efcste97]

You'll always find inconsistencies with sentencing - if you look hard enough.

But nobody should feel comfortable with the state saying "right, we're going to hammer these with harsher sentences because it's in our own interest" - weeks after releasing violent criminals early.

They'll all end up out "early" because their appeal will highlight that IMO.

If it avoids a death or hotel being burnt down then I've got no problem with the state fast tracking cases, how would you go about deterring future riots?

 

[GrandOldTeam]

If it avoids a death or hotel being burnt down then I've got no problem with the state fast tracking cases, how would you go about deterring future riots?

I wouldn't have been releasing violent criminals early.

Just weeks ago Starmer was doing exactly that.

We're talking serious violent crime, too.

Someone nicking some crocs or sausage rolls shouldn't get longer than someone who caved someone's head in with a brick.

London riots 2011

The average custodial sentence was 16.8 months - more than four times the average term handed down by magistrates' courts for similar offences.

There were many striking cases: a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water; a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream; a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.
————————-

There are similar stories from the poll tax and 80’s riots , it’s not new .

A core principle around law is proportionality - balancing the needs of society with the rights of individuals.

If you think;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water
• a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream;
• a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.

^ is right, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Even from a tax payer perspective, add up the cost of them 3 alone - 38 months of imprisonment - and it's a lot of money just to allow some favourable headlines.

 

[Damo_1878]

The rule of law is a foundational principle stating that everyone, including the government, is subject to the law. It ensures that laws are applied equally and fairly.

We've not got the details yet so we won't know. As I said as deserved as some sentences will be, it leaves an unnerving feeling around inconsistency/state agenda.

None of the sentences today are outside what is in The Public Order Act 1986 for the offences.

I'm not sure there is any inequality, personally

You know. This Starmer government hasn't passed any new laws. To make the sentences worse. Or criminalise protests. The courts are merely applying laws passed since 1986

 

[ChesterBlue]

I wouldn't have been releasing violent criminals early.

Just weeks ago Starmer was doing exactly that.

We're talking serious violent crime, too.

Someone nicking some crocs or sausage rolls shouldn't get longer than someone who caved someone's head in with a brick.



A core principle around law is proportionality - balancing the needs of society with the rights of individuals.

If you think;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water
• a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream;
• a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.

^ is right, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Even from a tax payer perspective, add up the cost of them 3 alone - 38 months of imprisonment - and it's a lot of money just to allow some favourable headlines.

Looting. Not stealing. It’s a different crime.

 

[tsubaki]

I wouldn't have been releasing violent criminals early.

Just weeks ago Starmer was doing exactly that.

We're talking serious violent crime, too.

Someone nicking some crocs or sausage rolls shouldn't get longer than someone who caved someone's head in with a brick.



A core principle around law is proportionality - balancing the needs of society with the rights of individuals.

If you think;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water

^ is right, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Proportionality is why these sentences are so steep though - stealing in those circumstances (looting during a riot) is not the same as doing it in a Tesco when everything is calm.

Likewise if you stoved someone’s head in with a brick during a riot, you’d get more sentence than someone who did it in normal times.

 

[Bedfordblue]

And criminals.

Violent conduct is violent conduct.



It's not about mitigation.

The law should be consistent.

Everyone knowing they're trying to set a precedent/make a point doesn't make it right.

They're rushing it through and want headline sentences to prevent more. Understandable. But it's inconsistent.

the court also consider aggravating factors as well as mitigation.

Rioting is and long has been considered an aggravating factor .

 

[summerisle]

I wouldn't have been releasing violent criminals early.

Just weeks ago Starmer was doing exactly that.

We're talking serious violent crime, too.

Someone nicking some crocs or sausage rolls shouldn't get longer than someone who caved someone's head in with a brick.



A core principle around law is proportionality - balancing the needs of society with the rights of individuals.

If you think;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water
• a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream;
• a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.

^ is right, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Even from a tax payer perspective, add up the cost of them 3 alone - 38 months of imprisonment - and it's a lot of money just to allow some favourable headlines.

I'm not sure about violent criminals being released early.

About 5,500 prisoners to be released early in England and Wales

Justice secretary says temporary scheme in September and October will ‘avert disaster’ in overcrowding crisis

www.theguardian.com

Whereas, the previous government did.

Dangerous criminals being freed from jail early to cut overcrowding – watchdog

The Government had said the measure would be temporary and would only allow low-level offenders out of prison up to 18 days early.

uk.news.yahoo.com

 

[Damo_1878]

Proportionality is why these sentences are so steep though - stealing in those circumstances (looting during a riot) is not the same as doing it in a Tesco when everything is calm.

Likewise if you stoved someone’s head in with a brick during a riot, you’d get more sentence than someone who did it in normal times.

I recommend @GrandOldTeam reads this blog entry

The attitude is different because the criminal justice system is attempting to restore order. To prevent itself being overwhelmed

It's not normal times. It's orchestrated groups committing crimes. Not simply individuals

The charging strategies will change if this escalates to charging with riot rather than individual violent disorder offenses. Also the orchestrators can expect to be very severely punished. Thats what the CPS charging/prosecution guidance says. They will get charged under section 1 not 2 of the public order act. Those penalties are up to 10 years prison. Worse if they engage in wounding etc like GBH etc

How the criminal justice system deals with a riot

5th August 2024 Thirteen years ago, I went along to the south London shopping centre expecting to report on a riot. But there was not a riot. And so in a splendid exercise of journalism, I filed a …

davidallengreen.com

 

[PhilM]

@GrandOldTeam the reason the sentences are so more extreme is because they’ve been found guilty of violent disorder, which brings about a severe sentence.

There’s certain criteria needed to meet that charge, so it’s not a common thing to get.

 

[efcste97]

I wouldn't have been releasing violent criminals early.

Just weeks ago Starmer was doing exactly that.

We're talking serious violent crime, too.

Someone nicking some crocs or sausage rolls shouldn't get longer than someone who caved someone's head in with a brick.



A core principle around law is proportionality - balancing the needs of society with the rights of individuals.

If you think;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water

^ is right, then we'll have to agree to disagree.

The early release of criminals hasn't incited these riots; rather, misinformation and hysteria fueled by opportunistic grifters like TR has. Those who have committed violent attacks, looted, shouted racist abuse, or targeted minority-owned premises deserve to be made an example of. A 'slap on the wrist' isn't the way to treat these racist individuals, really couldn't give two shites if they've got no priors.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Proportionality is why these sentences are so steep though - stealing in those circumstances (looting during a riot) is not the same as doing it in a Tesco when everything is calm.

Being the point;

Likewise if you stoved someone’s head in with a brick during a riot, you’d get more sentence than someone who did it in normal times.

The difference is too much being my point. Examples as someone else give;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water
• a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream;
• a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.

We'll see similar this time.

My first post;

As deserved as some sentences will be, it leaves an unnerving feeling around inconsistency/state agenda.

 

[tsubaki]

the court also consider aggravating factors as well as mitigation.

Rioting is and long has been considered an aggravating factor .

Back in the day it was *the* aggravating factor; once a magistrate read out the Riot Act it was open season on anyone in the vicinity.

 

[Damo_1878]

Being the point;



The difference is too much being my point. Examples as someone else give;

• a twenty- three-year-old with no prior convictions sentenced to six monthsʼ imprisonment for stealing £3.50 worth of bottled water
• a twenty-two-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing ice cream;
• a forty-eight-year-old sentenced to sixteen months for stealing doughnuts.

We'll see similar this time.

My first post;

Give this a read DD

How the criminal justice system deals with a riot

5th August 2024 Thirteen years ago, I went along to the south London shopping centre expecting to report on a riot. But there was not a riot. And so in a splendid exercise of journalism, I filed a …

davidallengreen.com