Manchester United

[JimEFC_2]

With their success it’s created ego, a sense of entitlement. I like Roy Keane but his “it’s Man Utd” routine gets tedious. There is being passionate and wanting the best for your club and then there’s a spoilt mentality.

I remember we beat them 4-0 under Silva and Gary Neville was flabbergasted like “it’s Everton, Everton! “ .

The culture there fell apart after Ferguson, he was excellent at man management, sussing out what was needed for the individual player. These days a lot of managers are obsessed with philosophy and wanting to be like Pep. It started with the playing from the back with the keeper regardless if it’s a weakness.

A manager should be adaptable to the situation not stubborn. They’re not arsed a lot of them because of how substantial the pay offs are.

It's like the inverse of Dyche right now at Notts, sticking to his philosophy no matter how good the players in his squad are.

Amorim also had the annoying thing of never admitting the tactics were wrong for the match they'd just played.

 

[gonetomorrow]

They're sixth in the league with some important players out, notably Fernandes.
It's not too bad!

 

[Rita_Poon]

Get maresca in before city do?

 

[TheBigIguana]

It's like the inverse of Dyche right now at Notts, sticking to his philosophy no matter how good the players in his squad are.

Amorim also had the annoying thing of never admitting the tactics were wrong for the match they'd just played.

Game by game tactical adjustments get you nowhere. They’re not good enough yet.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Adaptability is the last step. Once the platform is built you can start adapting to what you have. They have no platform. Maybe being adaptable pushes them up the table. It won’t win a title.

The hard work of setting the stage is what is needed. Amorim wanted to do that. They didn’t want him to.

There is no way a 3421 system gets the best out of those players.

He is a manager who has a very specific philosophy. Its a philosophy that I dont think is ever very likely to work and is a really bad fit for the club he was at.

He kept 3 centre halves on the pitch at the end of the game against us when we had 10 and weren't even playing a striker. It was laughable.

They spend enormous amounts of money every year and still are average. I don't see any foundations of a great team. The 15th last year is an outlier too and shouldn't be used as a comparison point. They didn't have the 15th best team or squad, not even close.

 

[TheBigIguana]

There is no way a 3421 system gets the best out of those players.

He is a manager who has a very specific philosophy. Its a philosophy that I dont think is ever very likely to work and is a really bad fit for the club he was at.

He kept 3 centre halves on the pitch at the end of the game against us when we had 10 and weren't even playing a striker. It was laughable.

They spend enormous amounts of money every year and still are average. I don't see any foundations of a great team. The 15th last year is an outlier too and shouldn't be used as a l comparison point. They didn't have the 15th best team or squad, not even close.

It’s not meant to get the best out of the current team. The best the current team can do is maybe fourth which isn’t good enough for them ultimately. The whole point is to get the system set, figure out what you can and can’t do with the guys you have, and then buy players to fill the gaps that remain. That way you start to develop continuity and can actually recruit with a goal in mind instead of just firing cash at any half decent looking guy and trying to figure it out later.

I don’t where the ceiling for Amorim is, but this is the best process United have had since Ferguson and they threw it away.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Adaptability is the last step. Once the platform is built you can start adapting to what you have. They have no platform. Maybe being adaptable pushes them up the table. It won’t win a title.

The hard work of setting the stage is what is needed. Amorim wanted to do that. They didn’t want him to.

I have no problem with a manager having a preferred way of playing but for me he was far too rigid within games.

Take for instance when we went down to 10 men against them - he didn’t change any of his system to take advantage of the numerical superiority, even when they went behind and were chasing a goal.

But despite that apparent rigidity on formation he has also made some bizarre substitutions and rotations. Like replacing one of his CBs with another CB frequenly


and even when one player does well one week in a position replacing them the next.

There were some good things about him but I can understand why the got rid, over his time in charge from Nov 2024 he had less points than Everton and we haven’t been a great example of a well run club over that time.

 

[ToffeeTim]

It’s not meant to get the best out of the current team. The best the current team can do is maybe fourth which isn’t good enough for them ultimately. The whole point is to get the system set, figure out what you can and can’t do with the guys you have, and then buy players to fill the gaps that remain. That way you start to develop continuity and can actually recruit with a goal in mind instead of just firing cash at any half decent looking guy and trying to figure it out later.

I don’t where the ceiling for Amorim is, but this is the best process United have had since Ferguson and they threw it away.

I think the system he tried to implement isn't working and is very unlikely to ever work.

I'm not even sure there are many top players out there who can be elite at a wing back or in a two behind the striker. They are very specific positions that hardly any teams play with.

There is a reason why most top teams play in normal structures with normal positions when in possession.

 

[TheBigIguana]

I have no problem with a manager having a preferred way of playing but for me he was far too rigid within games.

Take for instance when we went down to 10 men against them - he didn’t change any of his system to take advantage of the numerical superiority, even when they went behind and were chasing a goal.

But despite that apparent rigidity on formation he has also made some bizarre substitutions and rotations. Like replacing one of his CBs with another CB frequenly


and even when one player does well one week in a position replacing them the next.

There were some good things about him but I can understand why the got rid, over his time in charge from Nov 2024 he had less points than Everton and we haven’t been a great example of a well run club over that time.

The game against us we got absolutely battered. Sometimes the ball doesn't go in.

I also feel the points total is misleading because he was very much forced to start players he would not have to push for the Europa League win. He was handing multiple starts to Harry Amass and Tyler Fredericson in the PL so his strong team could play midweek. And fwiw the Europa League final was one of those sometimes the best side doesn't win deals that happens in football.

 

[TheBigIguana]

I think the system he tried to implement isn't working and is very unlikely to ever work.

I'm not even sure there are many top players out there who can be elite at a wing back or in a two behind the striker. They are very specific positions that hardly any teams play with.

There is a reason why most top teams play in normal structures with normal positions when in possession.

It's not a million miles away from the system that Antonio Conte won the league with. Conte is a much more balanced manager who favors organization way more than the chaos of Amorim, but I wholly disagree that the system should be dismissed out of hand.

Palace are also using a very similar system to have one of the best spells in their history.

 

[ToffeeTim]

It's not a million miles away from the system that Antonio Conte won the league with. Conte is a much more balanced manager who favors organization way more than the chaos of Amorim, but I wholly disagree that the system should be dismissed out of hand.

Palace are also using a very similar system to have one of the best spells in their history.

If you are using a more complex system then you need to be an excellent coach so your players are drilled. I think Glasner uses a less complicated version of the 3 at the back but the Palace team, with far less talented players, look far more comfortable.

But even if you do think the system isn't the problem, then Amorim clearly wasn't able to coach his players well enough because they never looked organised.

 

[TheBigIguana]

If you are using a more complex system then you need to be an excellent coach so your players are drilled. I think Glasner uses a less complicated version of the 3 at the back but the Palace team, with far less talented players, look far more comfortable.

But even if you do think the system isn't the problem, then Amorim clearly wasn't able to coach his players well enough because they never looked organised.

They weren't trying to be organized! He wanted to thrive in the chaos of an open game. His gamble is that in a world where everyone strives for control his team would be better in games that were intentionally not controlled. It was starting to work too.

Now they'll bring in Maresca or Tuchel to do the complete opposite which isn't wrong necessarily, but will also take years to work. They'll not let process play out and the cycle starts over again.

 

[LinekersLegs]

The game against us we got absolutely battered. Sometimes the ball doesn't go in.

I also feel the points total is misleading because he was very much forced to start players he would not have to push for the Europa League win. He was handing multiple starts to Harry Amass and Tyler Fredericson in the PL so his strong team could play midweek. And fwiw the Europa League final was one of those sometimes the best side doesn't win deals that happens in football.

The ball may not go in but it on the manager to try to improve the odds that it will, and in that game and in others I have watched he has been so wedded to his formation he hasn’t been prepared to change it to do so. “Even the Pope couldn’t get me to change my formation” is just far too inflexible a position to have imo.

But his points total hasn’t been that great this year either when he didn’t have Europe, as of week 19 the midpoint they were only a couple of points better than us with the same number of wins. And the weird rotation was still happening. He has had longer in charge than Moyes, more investment and a better overall squad.

 

[TheBigIguana]

The ball may not go in but it on the manager to try to improve the odds that it will, and in that game and in others I have watched he has been so wedded to his formation he hasn’t been prepared to change it to do so. “Even the Pope couldn’t get me to change my formation” is just far too inflexible a position to have imo.

But his points total hasn’t been that great this year either when he didn’t have Europe, as of week 19 the midpoint they were only a couple of points better than us with the same number of wins. And the weird rotation was still happening. He has had longer in charge than Moyes, more investment and a better overall squad.

I think my point is more that it was working. For every formation change that fixes something there are many that also break the team. Case in point Everton Football Club on Sunday. There is a point where a manager needs to be willing to chase points every week. United aren't there. They need to have a much higher baseline level of play first. And constant messing around prevents that from happening.

His points total is perfectly fine. They're 3 points off fourth. Any expectation far above that is delusional.

 

[LinekersLegs]

I think my point is more that it was working. For every formation change that fixes something there are many that also break the team. Case in point Everton Football Club on Sunday. There is a point where a manager needs to be willing to chase points every week. United aren't there. They need to have a much higher baseline level of play first. And constant messing around prevents that from happening.

His points total is perfectly fine. They're 3 points off fourth. Any expectation far above that is delusional.

There was mild improvement but I didn’t see anything myself that suggested that even if given another couple of transfer windows there would be a huge leap forward. To be so tactically rigid makes it far more straightforward for your opponents to devise a game plan against you .

As K mentioned the same thing that Moyes did on Sunday, replace one CB with another despite a good performance, is something that Amorin has done to excess even if his formation has been rigid.