Current Affairs Labour and Anti Semitism.......

[davek]

In and of itself, yes.

But most voters respond less to specific issues than to the cues that they provide.

Few will recall the details of this latest episode on election day, but they will nonetheless be informed by the perceptions it reinforces: that Corbyn is radical and untrustworthy, especially on matters relating to national security.

In much the same way, voters - even Leavers - are finally beginning to catch wind that Brexit is going to be a disaster, even if they still don't really understand the Irish Border, or the Single Market or Customs Union, let alone what was at stake at Chequers and why it failed.

It is useless for Labour to win London or Liverpool constituencies by 85% next time instead of only 75% - to actually take power, they need to flip seats, and most of the ones most up for grabs are in hardscrabble post-industrial towns in the North and the Midlands - Mansfield, Stoke, Middlesborough etc.

And it's in places like these where Corbyn polls particularly unfavourably, not least because of his reputation for being soft on things like security.

Mate, he was tarred with being an anti-royalist, anti-armed forces, pro-IRA swivel eyed lunatic for months and months before the last election: Labour was still reinvigorated at the polls, doing way better than the insipid bunch of free-marketeers previously in charge of the LP in the previous two elections.

The moral of the story (and as said): no one gives a monkeys about these marginal (fabricated) issues.

 

[superblue123]

How so?

Corbyn himself in his latest Guardian article in July:

"We were too slow in processing disciplinary cases of antisemitic abuse, mostly online, by party members. And we haven’t done enough to foster deeper understanding of antisemitism among members."

The latter part is mostly attributable to Corbyn in my opinion. He had a meeting with the BoD and JLC in April time(?) after the demonstration in Parliament Square, on how to combat anti-semitism and repair relations with the British Jewish community. Yet he has not done enough and admitted it in that article last week.

Livingstone - how many years was he suspended for? Before he eventually got to jump before he was pushed. How slow were Labour dealing with this clear anti-semitism? Yet Hodge shouts abuse at Corbyn and receives a letter within 24 hours. It just looks like an environment that allows anti-semitism to foster from the outside.

 

[abelard]

Mate, he was tarred with being an anti-royalist, anti-armed forces, pro-IRA swivel eyed lunatic for months and months before the last election: Labour was still reinvigorated at the polls, doing way better than the insipid bunch of free-marketeers previously in charge of the LP in the previous two elections.

The moral of the story (and as said): no one gives a monkeys about these marginal (fabricated) issues.

It depends... do you want to win moral victories, or do you want to win power?

What do you see that suggests we're not headed for some ridiculous Labour-led coalition that will collapse at the first hurdle?

If this is what we get, then his inability (and at times ineptitude) in overcoming media-fulled perceptions will have been the main reason why.

 

[Number_25]

Corbyn himself in his latest Guardian article in July:

"We were too slow in processing disciplinary cases of antisemitic abuse, mostly online, by party members. And we haven’t done enough to foster deeper understanding of antisemitism among members."

The latter part is mostly attributable to Corbyn in my opinion. He had a meeting with the BoD and JLC in April time(?) after the demonstration in Parliament Square, on how to combat anti-semitism and repair relations with the British Jewish community. Yet he has not done enough and admitted it in that article last week.

Livingstone - how many years was he suspended for? Before he eventually got to jump before he was pushed. How slow were Labour dealing with this clear anti-semitism? Yet Hodge shouts abuse at Corbyn and receives a letter within 24 hours. It just looks like an environment that allows anti-semitism to foster from the outside.

I'm going to point out that disciplinary procedures within the Labour Party have always been slow, from memory I remember it taking 3 years to kick someone out for saying an Islamophobic statement between Blair and Brown. These procedures have nothing to do with the leadership.

As for the so-called "Jewish Board of Deputies", nothing he does will be good enough. Even in their open letter, they cited so-called "far left" ideology being the issue at hand here.

The reason why post Nazi-Germany was given masses of investment from the allies was that the socioeconomic damage caused by the previous wars sanctions pushed many Germany people to the edge, and that mustached [Poor language removed] fed off of it.

 

[Number_25]

It depends... do you want to win moral victories, or do you want to win power?

What do you see that suggests we're not headed for some ridiculous Labour-led coalition that will collapse at the first hurdle?

If this is what we get, then his inability (and at times ineptitude) in overcoming media-fulled perceptions will have been the main reason why.

Labour are at 40% in the polls. We can win power.

When I campaigned under Blair, Brown, and Miliband - it was difficult to get people to come out and vote. 2017 was completely different, people who had never voted before felt enthused by the potential of radical social democracy and we (as a party) reaped the rewards.

 

[superblue123]

I'm going to point out that disciplinary procedures within the Labour Party have always been slow, from memory I remember it taking 3 years to kick someone out for saying an Islamophobic statement between Blair and Brown. These procedures have nothing to do with the leadership.

As for the so-called "Jewish Board of Deputies", nothing he does will be good enough. Even in their open letter, they cited so-called "far left" ideology being the issue at hand here.

The reason why post Nazi-Germany was given masses of investment from the allies was that the socioeconomic damage caused by the previous wars sanctions pushed many Germany people to the edge, and that mustached [Poor language removed] fed off of it.

Granted re the procedures having nothing to do with the Leadership and that is why I said the latter part of his quote it was I attribute mainly to Corbyn. Although one does have to wonder why the Hodge case was dropped by Formby; a nudge by Corbyn perhaps as it was a "first step" on mending the relations in the fall out of the IHRA definition?

The Jewish Board of Deputies are not democratically elected, and there are many times where they are not concurrent with the thoughts of British Jews (ie congratulating Trump on his victory". But i think it is fair to say that on this anti-semitism issue; they do represent the views of mainstream British Jewry.

 

[davek]

It depends... do you want to win moral victories, or do you want to win power?

What do you see that suggests we're not headed for some ridiculous Labour-led coalition that will collapse at the first hurdle?

If this is what we get, then his inability (and at times ineptitude) in overcoming media-fulled perceptions will have been the main reason why.

It doesn't matter what he says and does, the media will contort it and present it the way they wish becuase they are all against what he wants to put into action in any future Labour Government.

 

[Number_25]

Granted re the procedures having nothing to do with the Leadership and that is why I said the latter part of his quote it was I attribute mainly to Corbyn.

What was your point then?

Jewish Board of Deputies are not democratically elected, and there are many times where they are not concurrent with the thoughts of British Jews (ie congratulating Trump on his victory". But i think it is fair to say that on this anti-semitism issue; they do represent the views of mainstream British Jewry.

They don't.

 

[flibbyflob]

The latest poll is for ICM and it shows a 1 point Labour lead.

It was a different one I saw, even a 1 point lead is pathetic given how terrible the Tories are.

 

[superblue123]

What was your point then?



They don't.

My point was that Corbyn has not done enough a) since his time as Leader of the Opposition b) since his meeting with Jewish representatives in April 2018 and c) in the last few weeks to i) advance/mend relations with British Jewry or ii) done enough to stem anti-semitism in Labour (which does exist).

I think they do. Out of interest, who do you think does?

 

[Number_25]

My point was that Corbyn has not done enough a) since his time as Leader of the Opposition b) since his meeting with Jewish representatives in April 2018 and c) in the last few weeks to i) advance/mend relations with British Jewry or ii) done enough to stem anti-semitism in Labour (which does exist).

I think they do. Out of interest, who do you think does?

Just a heads up. The belief that Jewish people share some sort of hivemind is exactly the sort of anti-Semitic trope the Nazis thrived upon. There is no homogeneous "British Jew" mentality, and I consider any attempt to push that fallacy to be more intrinsically violent than being called a "big nosed kike".

There's literally nothing Corbyn can do to please the BoD. They did exactly the same with Ed Miliband, the son of a Holocaust Survivor.

 

[davek]

It was a different one I saw, even a 1 point lead is pathetic given how terrible the Tories are.

2 point and 1 point leads.

Why is it pathetic? Do you think the LP are getting an even break in the media. To cut through all their BS and spin and be ahead is remarkable.

 

[superblue123]

Just a heads up. The belief that Jewish people share some sort of hivemind is exactly the sort of anti-Semitic trope the Nazis thrived upon. There is no homogeneous "British Jew" mentality, and I consider any attempt to push that fallacy to be more intrinsically violent than being called a "big nosed kike".

There's literally nothing Corbyn can do to please the BoD. They did exactly the same with Ed Miliband, the son of a Holocaust Survivor.

Please - we are having a rational debate that I thought was going rather intriguingly.

I have clearly stated mainstream British Jewry in many of my responses; and I think the BoD and JLC on the anti-semitism issue have represented mainstream British Jewry - a "mainstream" that on this issue, has involvement from all denominations of Judaism in the UK - no matter their religious observance or view on Israel. It is completely rational to refer to a mainstream of a community.

 

[abelard]

2 point and 1 point leads.

Why is it pathetic? Do you think the LP are getting an even break in the media. To cut through all their BS and spin and be ahead is remarkable.

Because 2 point leads are not good enough. Fragile minority coalitions are not good enough. Where are the gains coming from? The latest polling in Scotland has Labour back down to a single MP (cue "but polls don't matter"). Of course 2017 was remarkable, and of course leftish politics will never get a fair hearing in the British media. That has always been a given, and whinging about it changes nothing. Nothing concrete has been acheived yet, and none of the progres to date is worth anything if Labour doesn't ultimately win. They have to win. For some of us it's more than just an abstraction.

 

[davek]

Because 2 point leads are not good enough. Fragile minority coalitions are not good enough. Where are the gains coming from? The latest polling in Scotland has Labour back down to a single MP (cue "but polls don't matter"). Of course 2017 was remarkable, and of course leftish politics will never get a fair hearing in the British media. That has always been a given, and whinging about it changes nothing. Nothing concrete has been acheived yet, and none of the progres to date is worth anything if Labour doesn't ultimately win. They have to win. For some of us it's more than just an abstraction.

...so the solution is...get Corbyn out and get back to some Blairite-lite weasel to win over the British public...even though they were sick to the back teeth of them?

Nah, the trend is set and the result of the next election is sorted.