Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state

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How does a government respond to this?

In any disagreement we have two options, conversations or violence. If we expect non-violent responses from Israel why can we not expect them from Hamas?


I am all for a response, and certainly in this case I understand a violent one might have been deemed necessary. But imo you don't need to know exactly where the line is to know the Israeli government has gone well beyond it.

We expect nothing from Hamas, because nobody sees them as anything other than a violent, oppressive regime. Israel is a wealthy, highly well armed democracy. There is such a massive imbalance in the power relationship between the two, and in this sort of relationship the one with the vast majority of the power bears the largest responsibility in terms restraint and discretion.

Instead, they have used this power not only indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of men, women and children, but they have also turned their hospitals and infrastructure to dust. Apart from the obvious practical arguments about its usefulness (ie. creation of the next generation of Hamas), it's quite clearly wrong, an ethical abomination both in its underlying motives and execution.

My brother is all very supportive of this using phrases like "I support Israel's right to exist" (yeah, pretty much all of us do) and "Hamas are an evil regime" (Stop the presses!). It's very annoying because I thought it would be a simple thing that everyone could agree on, that this level of slaughter cannot be justified by anything. There is no way those children were Hamas members before they were turned into burned and limbless corpses.
 
I am all for a response, and certainly in this case I understand a violent one might have been deemed necessary. But imo you don't need to know exactly where the line is to know the Israeli government has gone well beyond it.

We expect nothing from Hamas, because nobody sees them as anything other than a violent, oppressive regime. Israel is a wealthy, highly well armed democracy. There is such a massive imbalance in the power relationship between the two, and in this sort of relationship the one with the vast majority of the power bears the largest responsibility in terms restraint and discretion.

Instead, they have used this power not only indiscriminately kill tens of thousands of men, women and children, but they have also turned their hospitals and infrastructure to dust. Apart from the obvious practical arguments about its usefulness (ie. creation of the next generation of Hamas), it's quite clearly wrong, an ethical abomination both in its underlying motives and execution.

My brother is all very supportive of this using phrases like "I support Israel's right to exist" (yeah, pretty much all of us do) and "Hamas are an evil regime" (Stop the presses!). It's very annoying because I thought it would be a simple thing that everyone could agree on, that this level of slaughter cannot be justified by anything. There is no way those children were Hamas members before they were turned into burned and limbless corpses.
Or in layman's terms, what Hamas did was bad, and what Israel is doing is bad... very bad.
 
Exactly. It's appalling and I am honestly stunned at the level of open political support it has received from around the world.
I'm aghast how so many people are unable or unwilling to criticise both - it often boils down to a polar argument due to an absolute number of reasons.

My common question to people is: how can Israel argue that this is a proportionate response under the principle of self-defence? It's hugely disproportionate.

Nor is this about the right to exist. I agree with their right to exist, but this is about their right to dominate. It's the exertion of control without regress.

Israel had the right to respond to Hamas's initial attack; they also arguably had a right to ensure their long-term security, but it must be measured and proportional.

This has gone way beyond that, and perhaps conveniently allowed the right-wing lunatics in their government to do what they've wanted to do for ages.
 
Israel had the right to respond to Hamas's initial attack; they also arguably had a right to ensure their long-term security, but it must be measured and proportional.

This has gone way beyond that
, and perhaps conveniently allowed the right-wing lunatics in their government to do what they've wanted to do for ages.
This in fairness has been the approach of the Irish Government and opposition parties throughout.

I hold no brief for any party after over 35 years as a Civil Servant dealing with all sorts of ideologies.

I can however recognise that in relation to these tragic events at least, Ireland has behaved appropriately, and I give credit where it is due.

The grossly offensive responses of the Israeli ambassador and Israeli government ministers to Ireland's position has been disgusting.

It seems Ireland is widely regarded in Israel as the most anti-Semitic country in Europe as a result of official propaganda.

Hamas was wrong on 7th October and at many other times in the past.

Israeli Government war crimes and official policies since then have been horrific.

I repeat, criticism of these atrocities is not anti-Semitism. Trying to silence genuine people who are sickened to our stomachs by labelling such as bigots and racists is beneath contempt.
 
I repeat, criticism of these atrocities is not anti-Semitism. Trying to silence genuine people who are sickened to our stomachs by labelling such as bigots and racists is beneath contempt.
You're preaching to the choir here: you can fairly criticise the Israeli state without even having an iota of issues with Judaism.

Yet, the manipulation by many means that this is often now impossible because now, for many, Israel = Jews.
 
Just a quick addendum on the Irish politicians....

Yesterday the Irish people resoundingly rejected two proposed amendments to the Irish Constitution by 68% in one and 74% in the other despite almost unanimous support across all parties.

The Irish people are not the Irish Government - we can think for ourselves!

My support of Irish political policy on Gaza does not mean unqualified support for Irish politicians, Government or opposition - that needs to be earned.

Yesterday showed that this applies to the vast majority of the Irish electorate also - thankfully my faith in its democratic discernment of issues is restored.
 
Just a quick addendum on the Irish politicians....

Yesterday the Irish people resoundingly rejected two proposed amendments to the Irish Constitution by 68% in one and 74% in the other despite almost unanimous support across all parties.

The Irish people are not the Irish Government - we can think for ourselves!

My support of Irish political policy on Gaza does not mean unqualified support for Irish politicians, Government or opposition - that needs to be earned.

Yesterday showed that this applies to the vast majority of the Irish electorate also - thankfully my faith in its democratic discernment of issues is restored.


It's one of the things I love most about being Irish and living in Ireland. When you see the party politics that have taken such a firm hold in the UK and have completely obliterated all sense in the US, you really appreciate the sort of dull, reasonable attitude our lads and ladies take to government. If anyone in Ireland displayed the slavish, unwavering devotion to a single entity or party (eg. Peteblue with Boris and the Tories, any number of the Trump incels on here), they'd be given a wide berth at gatherings. When an Irish person says they don't like politics or politicians, they usually actually mean it.
 
I am not normally a supporter of the little man - a bit too self-righteous throughout his career in my view - but this is welcome...(not that the UN is a paragon of virtue either):

 
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