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Current Affairs Israel is an apartheid state
- Thread starter Billy Dean
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TaffyToffee85
Player Valuation: £950k
Should have boycotted Eurovision and made a statement, the first of many.
Was disgusted when it was held there.
Might be tricky. Think they've got a surplus of right wingers at the moment.
Thanks for the clarification.
I sometimes think it may be a somewhat cynical view of mine, but I've long felt that the status quo suits the Israeli right as long as few enough Israelis are dying. They've no interest in a two state solution, Netanyahu is on record explicitly ruling out the establishment of a Palestinian State in Judea and Samaria. Ever. Most Israelis have ending the occupation way down their list of priorities for the country, it's that entrenched.
They get to carry on building and establishing new settlements and the world just shrugs as long as the violence remains at a low level.
The PA are useless and corrupt, and act as little more than Israel's policeman in the PA controlled areas, and often treat their own people even worse than the Israelis do.
It's desperately sad.
BornBlue76
Player Valuation: £35m
I stay out of current affairs in the hope to avoid a thread like this. But here I am as my curiosity got to me. I had written in response to much I read here but have deleted it because honestly, what's the point? One: I, nor anyone one here can truly grasp the intent or context and secondly this is the internet, opinions are reinforced, never changed. This topic is the most polarized in the world. Many many people forget what they really care about and request change to something that will bring into being the exact opposite of their fundamental principles.. why? I wish I knew. If you get rid of the state of Israel - what will come in it's place? Which of the middle east would you like to put up as the example for this new Palestine to follow of enlightened progressive society you promote?
that's not the point you say, we're not saying get rid of it.. etc etc and the wheel spins...
But let me comment on one thing: Apartheid. I grew up in South Africa, which had apartheid for all my childhood. What it meant for us:
- no blacks nor coloureds may vote
- they may not go to the beach (whites only)
- they were not allowed to live or own property in white areas
- they were not allowed to go to white schools
- they were not allowed to use our public bathrooms
- they were not allowed to be part of the legal or political system ruling the country
on and on and on.
In Israel:
About 20% of the population is Israeli Arab. They may vote, they form part of parliament, they often have representation on the Supreme court that specifically ensure rights of the whole population is preserved, they may attend any school they wish and use any facility they wish.
But Israel is brandished an apartheid state. Sure we see what's on the surface with what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank, but ignore the intent and climate of both sides, as that's too hard to comprehend or even acknowledge. And that's why I honestly feel sad reading this thread.. such strong views without acknowledgement of the implications if you got what you shouting for. It's easy to forget why Israel was established on the back of 63% of the European Jewish population murdered in the 2nd world war and the psychological effect that has on people who don't take their existence for granted. ... anyway.. that feels off topic of what I'm trying to get across around what apartheid actually is....and so the wheel keeps spinning...
that's not the point you say, we're not saying get rid of it.. etc etc and the wheel spins...
But let me comment on one thing: Apartheid. I grew up in South Africa, which had apartheid for all my childhood. What it meant for us:
- no blacks nor coloureds may vote
- they may not go to the beach (whites only)
- they were not allowed to live or own property in white areas
- they were not allowed to go to white schools
- they were not allowed to use our public bathrooms
- they were not allowed to be part of the legal or political system ruling the country
on and on and on.
In Israel:
About 20% of the population is Israeli Arab. They may vote, they form part of parliament, they often have representation on the Supreme court that specifically ensure rights of the whole population is preserved, they may attend any school they wish and use any facility they wish.
But Israel is brandished an apartheid state. Sure we see what's on the surface with what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank, but ignore the intent and climate of both sides, as that's too hard to comprehend or even acknowledge. And that's why I honestly feel sad reading this thread.. such strong views without acknowledgement of the implications if you got what you shouting for. It's easy to forget why Israel was established on the back of 63% of the European Jewish population murdered in the 2nd world war and the psychological effect that has on people who don't take their existence for granted. ... anyway.. that feels off topic of what I'm trying to get across around what apartheid actually is....and so the wheel keeps spinning...
tsubaki
Player Valuation: £90m
TBF I agree apartheid is not the best word to describe what is taking place in Palestine.
It might not be exactly the same as what went on in South Africa but it pretty much nails every legal definition of apartheid.
A Threshold Crossed
The 213-page report, “A Threshold Crossed: Israeli Authorities and the Crimes of Apartheid and Persecution,” examines Israel’s treatment of Palestinians. It presents the present-day reality of a single authority, the Israeli government, ruling primarily over the area between the Jordan River and...
Also, as far as I can tell not one person in this thread has called for getting rid of Israel so I'm not sure where you got that from. The vast majority of people are calling for the disproportionate military campaign to end and for talks to be started to try and finally find some kind of resolution (as fanciful as that may be).
Toffeeslam
Player Valuation: £40m
Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza don’t have a
1) right to vote
2) have no freedom of movement
3)live under military rule
4) cannot get permission to build houses or buy land
5) cannot see family members if they live in different parts of the occupied territories.
7) effectively stateless as Israel refuses to allow a Palestinian state and refuses to grant Israeli citizenship.
8) don’t even get the same level of healthcare
you mentioned Israeli Arabs who do have citizenship well sadly there were sectarian riots due to this conflict where across multiple cities gangs of Arabs and Jews were attacking each other. The police made 166 arrests all Arab - make if that what you will - but that speaks volumes itself.
if it’s not apartheid then pray tell what is it ?
What a horrific thing to even have to think about
Martin Alvito
Player Valuation: £50m
Setting aside the thread's thesis for a moment, talking to Netanyahu is a waste of breath.
Only Nixon can go to China, but he has to see some political gain in order to do it. In that case, it was driving a wedge further between Sino-Soviet relations.
The conflict props Netanyahu up. The West Bank settlement map is telling - you couldn't draw a better map to guarantee conflict while giving the Israelis the upper hand. The Israelis have contiguity, while the opposition is fragmented into islands.
Only Nixon can go to China, but he has to see some political gain in order to do it. In that case, it was driving a wedge further between Sino-Soviet relations.
The conflict props Netanyahu up. The West Bank settlement map is telling - you couldn't draw a better map to guarantee conflict while giving the Israelis the upper hand. The Israelis have contiguity, while the opposition is fragmented into islands.
What a horrific thing to even have to think about
Isnt that a terrible thing to even have to consider..
BigMick
Player Valuation: £20m
Thanks for that. I agree with much of what you say regarding the apartheid comparison. It's very easy to use that word because it sounds bad and evil - which many people feel about Israel, especially at moments like this - but it does no service to understanding the complexity of the situation to use bad terminology to virtue-signal about Israel/Palestine. I've always felt we do a massive disservice to the unique historical experiences of both black South Africans and Palestinians when using this word.
That's not to overlook or downplay the very real problems that exist in Israeli society and Israeli laws within Israel itself but using the word 'apartheid' is ultimately counterproductive because it allows those who don't want change to list the differences you've highlighted, and to accuse often well-meaning people as being ill-informed or even biased, which sadly some critics are, while avoiding facing up to the problems.
The situation beyond the Green Line is a different matter and the word has more validity there with daily violations of human rights, denial of Palestinian sovereignty, restrictions on movement, and the reality of living side-by-side, with no citizenship rights, with Jewish-Israeli settlers who have all the privileges of Israel citizenship - I could go on. Even taking into account the security issues they face I believe Israeli policy there has been disastrously short-sighted, both for the Palestinian people and for the Israeli people.
The situation in Gaza is different again with the people forced to live under a terrorist regime that prioritises weapons and tunnels of the welfare of its citizens, who are isolated from their fellow-Palestinians and hemmed in by the joint Israeli/Egyptian blockade.
I've read several of the human rights reports that come out periodically and it's very easy to sit down and pick holes in them: a factual error here, an exaggeration there, but the injustices they list are predominantly true, it's just that the word 'apartheid' feels almost bolted on in an attempt to gather headlines for reports that would otherwise go under the radar, certainly in this country. That might be a good motive but overall it is, for me at least, counterproductive.
BigMick
Player Valuation: £20m
Sadly I think you're right about the status quo suiting the Israeli right.
I agree about the PA as it is now, but going back to its earlier days, particularly the time when Fayyad was prime minister, the opportunity was there for it to flourish with the plans he put in place. Sadly he was undermined from all sides - PA corruption, society corruption, Fatah hostility, the international community not maintaining their support and Israeli indifference - to use a football analogy, they were a bit Morgan Schneiderlin - doing the minimum while thinking they were doing enough. Ironically, the future of the PA and the Oslo Treaty were set to be one of the main topics during the election campaign, but sadly that never happened.
I can well understand your pessimism, especially at a time like this but having spent quite a bit of time there and met plenty of ordinary Palestinians and Israelis I remain optimistic that one day, somehow, a solution can be found. Perhaps the best way is for the politicians to step aside and let the people who want peace talk together.
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