Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

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This will have the likes of Rees Mogg, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith et al will be apopletic with rage. They will be stamping their feet and shaking their fists demanding action. They will not like the fact that a small nation stands in the way of the 'mighty' UK.

"The EU has thrown down an ultimatum to Theresa May in Brexittalks, warning that it will not open discussions about trade or other issues until the Irish border question is solved.

Speaking in Dublin alongside the Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, European Council President Donald Tusk said talks would be a case of “Ireland first” and that “the risk of destabilising the fragile peace process must be avoided at all costs”.

“We know today that the UK Government rejects a customs and regulatory border down the Irish Sea, the EU single market, and the customs union,” the Mr Tusk said.



EU rejects Theresa May’s Brexit trade plan
“While we must respect this position, we also expect the UK to propose a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border.

“As long as the UK doesn’t present such a solution, it is very difficult to imagine substantive progress in Brexit negotiations.

“If in London someone assumes that the negotiations will deal with other issues first before the Irish issue, my response would be: Ireland first.”

British negotiators have long been keen to move to discussions about trade and had hoped to do so after the March meeting of the European Council in two weeks, but Mr Tusk’s latest ultimatum suggests further delays could be in store. The EU says a withdrawal agreement must be negotiated by October to give it time to ratify the deal before the UK falls out of the bloc in March 2019.

Mr Tusk recalled that the Good Friday Agreement, whose 20th anniversary is next month, had been “ratified by huge majorities north and south of the border”.

READ MORE
“We must recognise the democratic decision taken by Britain to leave the EU in 2016 – just as we must recognise the democratic decision made on the island of Ireland in 1998 with all its consequences,” he said, in a play on the rhetoric used by Brexiteers regarding the 2016 EU referendum.

The EU27 nations granted the UK “sufficient progress” to move to the rest of Brexit talks in the December meeting of the European Council after the UK made a commitment to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland at all costs.

The joint report agreed by both sides stated that the UK would maintain regulatory alignment with the EU to prevent a hard border – unless another solution could be found, either specifically for Ireland, or as part of the wider trade deal.

Since that agreement, however, the UK has ruled out a trade deal solution by reiterating its commitment to leave the customs union and single market, has ruled out a customs border between the province and Great Britain, and has not produced detailed specific proposals for avoiding a hard border. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has also poured cold water on the issue, downplaying the UK’s commitment to avoiding a hard border in a letter to the PM.

Mr Tusk’s ultimatum raises the prospect that trade talks will be delayed even further beyond March, when they had been expected to start following the next meeting of the council.

In her Mansion House speech last week Ms May agreed that the UK had “a responsibility to help find a solution” to the border issue. But she reiterated ideas such as ”streamlined processes, including a trusted trader scheme” and said they would be “consistent with our commitments”. The EU has suggested that these ideas are not serious".
 
hullefc said:
This will have the likes of Rees Mogg, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith et al will be apopletic with rage. They will be stamping their feet and shaking their fists demanding action. They will not like the fact that a small nation stands in the way of the 'mighty' UK.

"The EU has thrown down an ultimatum to Theresa May in Brexittalks, warning that it will not open discussions about trade or other issues until the Irish border question is solved.

Speaking in Dublin alongside the Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar, European Council President Donald Tusk said talks would be a case of “Ireland first” and that “the risk of destabilising the fragile peace process must be avoided at all costs”.

“We know today that the UK Government rejects a customs and regulatory border down the Irish Sea, the EU single market, and the customs union,” the Mr Tusk said.



EU rejects Theresa May’s Brexit trade plan
“While we must respect this position, we also expect the UK to propose a specific and realistic solution to avoid a hard border.

“As long as the UK doesn’t present such a solution, it is very difficult to imagine substantive progress in Brexit negotiations.

“If in London someone assumes that the negotiations will deal with other issues first before the Irish issue, my response would be: Ireland first.”

British negotiators have long been keen to move to discussions about trade and had hoped to do so after the March meeting of the European Council in two weeks, but Mr Tusk’s latest ultimatum suggests further delays could be in store. The EU says a withdrawal agreement must be negotiated by October to give it time to ratify the deal before the UK falls out of the bloc in March 2019.

Mr Tusk recalled that the Good Friday Agreement, whose 20th anniversary is next month, had been “ratified by huge majorities north and south of the border”.

READ MORE
“We must recognise the democratic decision taken by Britain to leave the EU in 2016 – just as we must recognise the democratic decision made on the island of Ireland in 1998 with all its consequences,” he said, in a play on the rhetoric used by Brexiteers regarding the 2016 EU referendum.

The EU27 nations granted the UK “sufficient progress” to move to the rest of Brexit talks in the December meeting of the European Council after the UK made a commitment to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland at all costs.

The joint report agreed by both sides stated that the UK would maintain regulatory alignment with the EU to prevent a hard border – unless another solution could be found, either specifically for Ireland, or as part of the wider trade deal.

Since that agreement, however, the UK has ruled out a trade deal solution by reiterating its commitment to leave the customs union and single market, has ruled out a customs border between the province and Great Britain, and has not produced detailed specific proposals for avoiding a hard border. Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson has also poured cold water on the issue, downplaying the UK’s commitment to avoiding a hard border in a letter to the PM.

Mr Tusk’s ultimatum raises the prospect that trade talks will be delayed even further beyond March, when they had been expected to start following the next meeting of the council.

In her Mansion House speech last week Ms May agreed that the UK had “a responsibility to help find a solution” to the border issue. But she reiterated ideas such as ”streamlined processes, including a trusted trader scheme” and said they would be “consistent with our commitments”. The EU has suggested that these ideas are not serious".
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So trade talks get delayed again then. The U.K. seems to be getting more comfortable with WTO anyway, and the 27 are already breaking ranks. The EU is crapping itself that Trump may offer the U.K. exemption to steel tariffs, which is more symbolic than economic, while refusing similar to the whole of the EU, hence more threats and bluster.

Trade will sort itself out now, one way or the other. The border however needs some common sense approach which the EU will not give. That leaves the U.K. and ROI to sort it out. The U.K. is willing but the ROI has painted itself into a very strange corner. If you guys don’t start petitioning your government soon, then who knows what type of border you will get.....(not forgetting of course that the WTO will insist on fences and guards).........
 
peteblue said:
So trade talks get delayed again then. The U.K. seems to be getting more comfortable with WTO anyway, and the 27 are already breaking ranks. The EU is crapping itself that Trump may offer the U.K. exemption to steel tariffs, which is more symbolic than economic, while refusing similar to the whole of the EU, hence more threats and bluster.

Trade will sort itself out now, one way or the other. The border however needs some common sense approach which the EU will not give. That leaves the U.K. and ROI to sort it out. The U.K. is willing but the ROI has painted itself into a very strange corner. If you guys don’t start petitioning your government soon, then who knows what type of border you will get.....(not forgetting of course that the WTO will insist on fences and guards).........
Click to expand...

Pete are you now accepting that it would be the UK that put in place a hard border on Ireland? Previously you've always said it would be the EU's fault.

There is no way in a million years that the UK could operate on pure WTO rules. Domestic producers would be decimated!

All it would create is this "race to the bottom" and a complete disregard for quality and standards.
 
peteblue said:
So trade talks get delayed again then. The U.K. seems to be getting more comfortable with WTO anyway, and the 27 are already breaking ranks. The EU is crapping itself that Trump may offer the U.K. exemption to steel tariffs, which is more symbolic than economic, while refusing similar to the whole of the EU, hence more threats and bluster.

Trade will sort itself out now, one way or the other. The border however needs some common sense approach which the EU will not give. That leaves the U.K. and ROI to sort it out. The U.K. is willing but the ROI has painted itself into a very strange corner. If you guys don’t start petitioning your government soon, then who knows what type of border you will get.....(not forgetting of course that the WTO will insist on fences and guards).........
Click to expand...

The idea that the UK with its shambolic Brexit 'plan' is the arbiter of common sense in the border issue is ludicrous. The EU has given the UK several options for a frictionless border. The most sensible of which was to allow NI to remain in the single market - which would satisfy the NI electorate but not the DUP. Cameron, out of fear of losing power, brought us Brexit. Now May, out of fear of losing power (via the DUP vote), is bringing about a hard border in Ireland.

Nothing the UK has done on the matter has shown a commitment to an open and frictionless border. It's been empty soundbites from May and Co while the EU and ROI are putting realistic solutions on the table. Utter shambles, yet somehow pete sees this as the EU and ROI's obstinance. :Blink:
 
peteblue said:
So trade talks get delayed again then. The U.K. seems to be getting more comfortable with WTO anyway, and the 27 are already breaking ranks. The EU is crapping itself that Trump may offer the U.K. exemption to steel tariffs, which is more symbolic than economic, while refusing similar to the whole of the EU, hence more threats and bluster.

Trade will sort itself out now, one way or the other. The border however needs some common sense approach which the EU will not give. That leaves the U.K. and ROI to sort it out. The U.K. is willing but the ROI has painted itself into a very strange corner. If you guys don’t start petitioning your government soon, then who knows what type of border you will get.....(not forgetting of course that the WTO will insist on fences and guards).........
Click to expand...

WTO equals border checks on the island of Ireland by the UK government, the position of May since 2016. When May says she wants frictionless trade she means border checks on goods and people, which contravenes the Good Friday Agreement. To do that she will have to declare to the UN that the GFA is null and void and the UK will not abide by it. Which goes against the democratic wishes of the Northern Irish people. And reneging on international treaties wouldn't look good for a member of the Security Council.

May will then need to repeal the Northern Ireland Act 1989 which will mean direct rule until and if, a new executive is put in place. This executive will need to be in place to pass whatever Brexit agreement is reached as indicated by May in parliament. Either the executive will be appointed by May or there will have to be an election. When it gets to this stage there will be a call for a unification vote, which the DUP will be venomously against. But as May will have told the UN that the UK are not abiding by the GFA, she want need to abide by the rules.

This will then force the Irish government to act to protect the GFA. It will be against this messy background that the UK will be trying to negotiate with other countries. In America the UK will not get an easy ride from the Irish diaspora when trade negotiations are attempted.

If the upshot of Tory duplicity is a further move towards a united Ireland then Brexit will go down in history as a major turning point.
 
The man doesn't know his arse from his elbow. Anything i.e 'very minimal controls' that is not like the open border now will be a hard border. I wonder when he will talk about 'trusted trader' for UK companies being the answer, when UK companies haven't been following the rules regarding Chinese imports and owe the EU £2.5 billion in under recorded prices.

“Britain must pay Brussels £2.4 billion of underpaid customs duties on cheap Chinese shoes and clothes or face legal action in the European Court of Justice and potentially huge, daily fines.
The European Commission on Thursday issued a formal demand for the money and accused British authorities of turning a blind eye to a massive fraud network operating in UK ports.

The demand relates to shoes and clothes arriving in UK ports from China since 2007, whose value was under-reported by importers in order to minimise the customs duties collected and passed on to the EU.”

Johnson, like the UK government as a whole, has not put forward any concrete proposals for the border in print. They expect people to believe that by just saying 'no hard border' is the reality what will happen and actually what they want.

British government confirms it wants 'no hard border' in Ireland
Boris Johnson suggested that "very minimal controls" on the border would be acceptable

Andrew Woodcock, Press Association
09 March, 2018 13:53

Downing Street has insisted it wants "no hard border and no physical infrastructure" on the frontier between Northern Ireland and the Republic, after Boris Johnson suggested some "very minimal controls" would be acceptable.

The British foreign secretary also said leaving the European Union without a Brexit deal holds no terrors for the UK, which would do "very well" on World Trade Organisation terms.

Speaking to an audience of Telegraph subscribers, Mr Johnson said Brexit would be a "triumphant success".

The Telegraph reported Mr Johnson saying: "I've never been one of those who is apprehensive about the so-called no deal scenario.

"No deal is better than a bad deal.

"If we have to come out on WTO terms we will be prepared to do so.


"It doesn't hold terrors for me and we will do very well under those circumstances as well."

On the issue of the Irish border, Mr Johnson said it "will be possible to have very, very minimal controls at the border".

He said the issue "has understandably a great deal of political, emotional charge" and it is "all too forgivable for politicians to wish to be absolutely certain about how things will work".

Asked whether Mr Johnson's comments amounted to official Government policy, a Downing Street spokesman said: "As the prime minister has set out, we are firmly committed to working towards a deep and ambitious partnership with the EU. That remains our position.

"As any responsible government would, we are continuing to prepare for all scenarios, but our focus remains on securing this deep and ambitious partnership.

"On the border question, as the foreign secretary set out, he said there would be no need for a hard border. That remains our position. No need for any physical infrastructure."

Mr Johnson also indicated he would be prepared to accept the timetable for the Brexit transition period set out by Brussels, expiring at the end of 2020.

"That would suit me fine," he said.

The British prime minister has suggested a transition period should last for around two years - which would expire near the end of March 2021 - while Brexit Secretary David Davis has put a range of between 21 and 27 months on the deal".
 
"No deal is better than a bad deal' is just another one of those stupid meaningless Brexit slogans that stands up to no scrutiny.

No deal IS a bad deal for the UK. It means WTO and a hard border in Ireland. It means a return to 20-mile queues at the ports. There's absolutely no question of this. 130,000 exporting companies would have to deal with customs for the first time. Frictionless? In your dreams. We haven't begun to buy land for new inland clearing depots (which we still haven't built). We haven't begun to train the thousands of extra customs staff we would need. Some experts have put the added costs of 'securing our borders' in the billions.

In a scorched earth version of 'no deal' our air traffic would not be allowed to land in EU airports. EU citizens would instantly become illegal in the UK, Brits abroad might have to seek visas or return home unless an agreement is made. Supermarkets have warned they could run dangerously low on many supplies with no deal, and food imported from the EU would see on average 22% price hikes. Farmers would be left unable to export fresh (just in time) produce out of the country. Car companies wouldn't stick around long under WTO rules. It would make no sense for them to have plants in the UK unless they made cares solely for the UK market. Unemployment would certainly rise.

On the plus, the UK would be under no obligation to pay a financial leaving settlement. But can you imagine future trade discussions with the trading bloc having done that?

At it's worst, it's hard to imagine a deal that is worse for the UK than a 'no deal' scenario. And the irony is, how bad a no deal situation is will depend on how much the EU decide to [Poor language removed] us. They hold most of the cards in a 'no deal' scenario. The only thing that will make them go soft on us is how much they want to limit damage to themselves. But in any situation, we'll still be the worse off than them regardless of whatever 'no deal' situation is put in place.
 
Irish Prime Minister dismisses plan to register in advance to cross border after Brexit being studied by No 10


The Independent revealed that anyone without 'fast track movement' clearance would be 'considered to have entered the state irregularly' - other than at approved crossing points

leo-varadkar-ireland-brexit-0.jpg

Leo Varadkar: 'It is not a solution that we envisage' Reuters
The Irish Prime Minister has attacked a plan for people to register in advance to cross the border without checks after Brexit, which is being studied by Theresa May.

Leo Varadkar dismissed the idea – revealed by The Independent – as he turned on senior UK Cabinet ministers for failing to visit the border in order to understand it better.

Under the plan, anyone without clearance for “fast track movement” would have to use approved crossing points or would be “considered to have entered the state irregularly”.



Plan to register in advance to cross Irish border studied by No 10
CCTV and cameras to track vehicle number plates would be needed at some crossing points - despite the Prime Minister’s promise that the border will continue to have no “physical infrastructure”.

Nevertheless, Ms May told MPs she has “asked officials to look at it very carefully”, adding: “I believe it gives some very good proposals for solutions.”

The Independent’s story was raised with Mr Varadkar when he addressed an audience in Texas, part of a trip to the United States to celebrate St Patrick's Day.

“It is not a solution that we envisage,” the Taoiseach said.

He also seized on the fact David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, has not visited Northern Ireland since September 2016 – while Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, has failed to make the trip at all since his appointment in July 2016.

“I can't see anything negative in a British Cabinet minister viewing the border, seeing what it looks like,” Mr Varadkar said.

“You can read as many briefing documents as you like, sometimes you need to see things with your own eyes."

Oliver Robbins, the Prime Minister's chief Brexit negotiator, has also never visited the Irish border since taking on the role.

In sharp contrast, Michel Barnier, the EU's chief Brexit negotiator, has made the trip and Guy Verhofstadt, the European parliament's Brexit co-ordinator, visited Belfast in September.

The Prime Minister has asked officials to study the Smart Border 2.0 report – commissioned by a European Parliamentary committee – as she scrambles for a solution to the border dilemma.

In December, she agreed to “full alignment” of regulations across the entire UK if necessary to avoid the return of border posts and checks, which could become a magnet for terrorists.

But she has been accused of reneging on that agreement, rejecting the EU’s proposal of a a “common regulatory area" across Ireland if other solutions to avoid a hard border fail.

READ MORE
Instead, the Government has vowed to leave the EU customs union, putting its faith in technology to avoid checks – while failing to rule out the return of cameras at the crossing.

The Smart Border 2.0 study does propose a solution based on technology, but The Independent revealed it acknowledges the plan would still require:

* “Both physical and digital infrastructure” – with vehicles “to be monitored using Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) at unmanned border crossings”. It states: “CCTV will also be required at border crossings”.

* A Trusted Traveller Program – under which people would “pre-register for fast-track movement across the border”, possibly using “biometric passports or enhanced drivers’ licenses using radio frequency identification”.

* “Free movement lanes” at the busiest crossings to “allow differentiation between those entitled or not to move under the CTA [Common Travel Area]. Non-qualifying individuals who did not cross at these specific border crossings would then be considered to have entered the state irregularly”.

The UK government still hasn't produced anything in print to show how there will be no border on the island of Ireland.
 
Not going well for May's technological solutions for an invisible border. Even the Tories and the DUP don't think it is possible. The UK public still awaits the publication of May's report on the border issue. I suppose the May, Johnson and Rees Moog's et al 'taking back control', really means relying on the EU to write reports that will inform the UK population about what is happening. Because they are incapable and can only come up with smug and sarcastic platitudes.


Brexit: Theresa May warned hard Irish border can only be avoided if UK stays aligned with EU rules for time being


There is 'no evidence' for Prime Minister's hopes of a technical solution, Northern Ireland Affairs Committee warns

northern-ireland-border.jpg

The threat of a hard border in Ireland has provoked protests AFP/Getty
Theresa May is warned today that her pledge of no hard border in Ireland after Brexit can only be achieved if the UK remains aligned with EU rules for the foreseeable future, in a hard-hitting report by MPs.

There is “no evidence” of a technical solution to allow Northern Ireland to break free from the customs union and single marketwithout the return of border posts and checks, their report concludes.

The Government’s existing proposals are dismissed as “blue sky thinking” which would be impossible to implement before Brexit day, now just one year away.



Plan to register in advance to cross Irish border studied by No 10
Crucially, the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee also rejects “a customs border down the Irish Sea” – requiring the entire UK to stay aligned with the EU.

“The UK may need to remain in, or parallel to, the customs union and single market for the duration of the implementation period,” its report states.

That transition period is intended to conclude at the end of the decade – but the EU is insisting on continued alignment with Northern Ireland, unless a different solution can be found by then.

Significantly, Conservative and Democratic Unionist MPs on the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee have put their names to the report’s conclusions.

Dr Andrew Murrison, its Tory chairman, said: “Brexit’s success or otherwise hinges on the UK-Ireland border. Everyone agrees that the border after Brexit must look and feel as it does today.

“However, we have heard no evidence to suggest that there is currently a technical solution that would avoid infrastructure at the border.”

And he added: “It is equally clear that regulatory and tariff alignment will be required during transition to avoid any hardening of the border before a definitive low-friction solution can be determined.”

The Prime Minister is also urged to recognise that the success or failure of Brexit “hinges on the UK-Ireland border”, by setting out clearly workable plans for the crossing “without further delay”.

The report is a stark challenge to Ms May, after she condemned the EU’s proposals for a “common regulatory area” across Ireland, to loud cheers from Tory MPs in the Commons.

She vowed to make her staunch opposition to a draft legal agreement “crystal clear” to EU leaders, saying: “No UK prime minister could ever agree to it.”

However, the EU has insisted it will not agree a Brexit deal this autumn unless a legal guarantee has been given to the Irish government.

The Prime Minister has repeatedly insisted there will be no “physical infrastructure” at the border after Brexit, but has failed to say whether cameras would be allowed.

The Independent revealed she had asked officials to study an EU plan that would involve CCTV and number-plate cameras – and pre-registration of travellers – praising its “very good proposals”.

In December, Ms May agreed to “full alignment” of regulations across the entire UK if necessary to avoid a hard border – but has since backed away from that agreement, putting her faith in technology to avoid checks.

READ MORE
The Northern Ireland committee’s report recommends an “impact assessment for the border each time it is proposed that there should be regulatory or tariff divergence from the EU”.

When the Northern Ireland Assembly is restored at Stormont, it should be asked to give “consent for regulatory derogations”.

The committee did not address concerns that the return of border posts would be a magnet for terrorists, but it did hear evidence that even military checks failed to seal the border during the Troubles.

A professor at Dublin City University said there were 33,000 soldiers in Northern Ireland, adding: “I do not think you will find a single officer who thought the border was sealed for one hour during that period. All the evidence is that it was not.”
 
Incidentally, on the whole techno border thing, I know there are a range of projects being done on using things like RFID for refugee tracking, ala the stuff outlined here -

Which does create a quite clear passage towards citizens of the UK having digital ID cards and so on to make identification at the border easier. I'm not sure that's an outcome many Brexiteers would advocate however, or perhaps they're not big fans of civil liberties.
 
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