Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

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It would represent their acknowledging the sovereignty of British rule in N.I. though. They'd be bankrupt in ideological terms and lose a lot of their core support both sides of the border...and they're seen already as sell outs in the minds of a lot of people.


Well, that is exactly what their hardcore support said when they first voted to take their seats in the Dail back in the 80s.

But their vote increases on a regular basis so it done them no harm in the South.

The first Sinn Fein TD in the modern era took his seat in 1997.....they now have about 24 or 25 TDs.

The diehard Republicans accused them of “selling out” and “administering British rule in the six counties” when they first went into the Stormont Assembly.

Now they are the undisputed top party of Northern nationalists and their vote continues to rise.

I reckon it would be the same at Westminster.....a few dinosaurs would rail against it but their overall vote would be unaffected and actually they might pick up more votes from people who feel voting for them now is a waste of time due to abstentionism.

It is time they got themselves into the 21st century.

It is absolutely disgusting that the DUP are given free rein in the Westminster Brexit debates and are able to appear as the authentic voice of a united NI populace.

And ideology has to move on, Dave.

A political party....like our dear old football team....cannot remain tied to old dogma and practices which are demonstrably holding them back in a contemporaneous setting.

But for Labour ditching Clause IV we might never have ousted the Tories in the 90s.

Remember the outrage that move caused?

But we won three elections in a row after we did away with it.

That’s what I think anyway :)
 
Well, I'm no expert, but wasn't their advocacy of the GFA more of an acknowledgement of the reality of the balance of forces at that point in time rather than giving up the objective of a United Ireland?
They are largely a one reason party and that is unification. Pre GFA Sinn Fein considered that NI was an illegitimate state that they did not recognise. By agreeing to the principle of consent, this was SF acknowledging that NI would remain British until the majority vote otherwise. About as seismic a political change as you could get.

At the time they believed it would introduce power sharing and then allow Republicans the opportunity to shape an agreed future on the way to unity. And of course in the immediate term, remove London altogether.
 
Who cares ?, unless they apply for refugee status they are no drain on the economy and are basically on holiday. Ireland of course not being in Schengen will have picked up any real refugees at their own border controls on the way in from mainland Europe........

This is not about 'real refugees' but EU citizens that want to get into the UK. Unless the UK puts border checks on the island of Ireland, EU citizens will have free movement into the UK through the Republic or 'by the backdoor' according to Hoey. The EU citizens that the UK 'doesn't want' will still arrive in the UK via Northern Ireland. The UK will not be taking back control of their borders, the red line.
 
They are largely a one reason party and that is unification. Pre GFA Sinn Fein considered that NI was an illegitimate state that they did not recognise. By agreeing to the principle of consent, this was SF acknowledging that NI would remain British until the majority vote otherwise. About as seismic a political change as you could get.

At the time they believed it would introduce power sharing and then allow Republicans the opportunity to shape an agreed future on the way to unity. And of course in the immediate term, remove London altogether.
Exactly, and there lies the distinction. A pragmatic approach to taking up seats in the NI Assembly in order to change the face of the political landscape with the ultimate aim of a 32 counties future is a bit different than taking up seats in a British Parliament where they could affect not much but lose their identity.
 
And ideology has to move on, Dave.

A political party....like our dear old football team....cannot remain tied to old dogma and practices which are demonstrably holding them back in a contemporaneous setting.

But for Labour ditching Clause IV we might never have ousted the Tories in the 90s.

Remember the outrage that move caused?

But we won three elections in a row after we did away with it.

That’s what I think anyway :)
Hold on, that was a good thing?!
 
Having made the point that there are only a number of bodies who can address the issue raised in the ‘football manager wears a ribbon’ thread, I’m called a WUM because your beloved EU has totally ignored the issue......ok, I see your logic.....
You are a WUM because you:

a) don't answer the questions put to you
b) quote posts and reply with snooty and sarcastic comments, e.g. "beloved EU" above
c) never.......finish.......a.......sentence.......(standard internet WUM tactic)
d) derail threads off topic to pursue your agenda

so off on ignore you go.
 
Not saying it was or it wasn’t, Dave.

Just saying the leadership at the time thought it the pragmatic thing to do and they went ahead and ditched it ;)

With spectacular results :blush:
Dont think it had any effect on the outcome in 97, tbh. After 18 years of Thatcherism and neo-Thatcherism the country wanted a new start. Blairism was what was required by the Establishment, not the electorate.
 
Well, I'm no expert, but wasn't their advocacy of the GFA more of an acknowledgement of the reality of the balance of forces at that point in time rather than giving up the objective of a United Ireland?

The Good Friday Agreement is a snails pace towards a united Ireland, that is why the DUP have always been against it. Primarily because London has less and less control over Northern Irish affairs but also because it gives the people of Northern Ireland the right to vote to unite the country. This part of the GFA has always stuck in the DUP's throat and they would rather see the UK government renege on this international treaty in an attempt to stop any vote. In fact the very thing they are complaining about, recognition of the Irish language is an element of the GFA anyway. The DUP's wrecking ball tactics has made May look a complete fool and her reliance on them means the tail is wagging the dog. Europe looks on aghast as May keeps changing her mind over the island of Ireland.
 
SF won't be taking up their seats in Westminster so that idea can be scratched.

Their plan is to get a foothold in both jurisdictions which would enable them to pursue their aims from a position of strength.

If there is a hard border after Brexit though it is anyone's guess what might happen, which is why it is imperative to preserve the status quo for the foreseeable future.
 
The lad has a lot to learn about British politicking.

Brexit
Irish PM shows frustration with UK over Brexit border deal


Leo Varadkar says Theresa May or pro-Brexiters cannot ‘just say no now’ to previous agreement

Lisa O'Carroll and Harriet Sherwood

Wed 28 Feb 2018 17.43 GMTLast modified on Wed 28 Feb 2018 18.06 GMT



Ireland’s taoiseach, Leo Varadkar. Photograph: Jean-Francois Badias/AP
The Irish prime minister has said it is “not OK” for Theresa May to renege on a deal involving a “backstop” solution to the Irish border question that could mean Northern Ireland remaining in the customs union.

Dublin showed growing signs of frustration with the British government on Wednesday after the UK prime minister appeared to retreat from the agreement she made in December.

The taoiseach, Leo Varadkar, said the 119-page draft Brexit treaty unveiled in Brussels was merely putting into legal effect the joint report sealed just before Christmas.

“It’s not OK for people, whether pro-Brexit politicians in Britain or parties in Northern Ireland, to just say ‘no’ now. It’s incumbent on them, if they can’t accept the backstop, well then they must detail how option A or B would work,” Varadkar told Newstalk radio.

“And actually write them down; they can’t be theoretical stuff about congestion charges and tolling in another country,” he said, referring to the British foreign secretary Boris Johnson’s suggestion that technology similar to that used for travelling between two London boroughs could apply to the Irish border.

Varadkar’s deputy, Simon Coveney, warned it would be “hard to see” how May could deliver on her promise of an invisible border if the UK left the customs union and the single market.

An audibly exasperated Coveney pointed out that Ireland had supported Britain’s desire to move to phase-two talks in December because of the very guarantees it had agreed on the Irish border.

“Nobody is looking to pick a fight, nobody’s looking to have a go at the British government,” he said on RTÉ’s News at One.

“The problem here is the British government’s stated position [in December], and still now, is they want to make sure there is no border infrastructure between Northern Ireland and Ireland, they don’t want trade barriers between Northern Ireland and the UK, and that the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market – and those things are simply not compatible.

“It’s hard to see that being done if the British government continues to pursue leaving the customs union and the single market; it’s hard to see how you avoid border structures in that kind of context,” he said.

The December deal signed by May included three options for dealing with the movement of trade and people over the 310-mile border.

The first option is that the overall final deal between the UK and Britain obviates the need for border checks by retaining the status quo. The second option is a “bespoke” solution.

Article 3 of the draft withdrawal agreement states that if the first two options from the December deal for the Irish border are not met then a backstop, option C, comes into play.

View image on Twitter

https://twitter.com/lisaocarroll/status/968828592850423808
lisa o'carroll@lisaocarroll

Article 3 is brutally plain: "A common regulatory area comprising the Union and the United Kingdom in respect of Northern Ireland is hereby established".

12:41 PM - Feb 28, 2018


Coveney and Varadkar said the onus was on Britain to come up with an alternative, something Ireland has been requesting for more than 12 months.

“Our response is, look, this [option C] doesn’t have to be the solution, but come up with something better that we can agree and we’d be delighted to agree,” said Coveney.

“We are trying to protect the status quo which is also protecting the Good Friday agreement in terms of north-south co-operation.”

“We have to see an approach coming from the British government that allows for trade between the EU and UK that’s doesn’t allow borders and that solves the problem for Northern Ireland which was agreed in December,” he said.

Arlene Foster, the leader of the Democratic Unionist party, which is propping up the Westminster government, said the deal was an attack on the constitutional links between Northern Ireland and Britain.

She tweeted:

https://twitter.com/DUPleader/status/968829853490442245
Arlene Foster

✔@DUPleader


EU draft text is constitutionally unacceptable & would be economically catastrophic for Northern Ireland. I welcome the Prime Minister's commitment that HMG will not allow any new border in the Irish Sea. Northern Ireland must have unfettered access to GB market. AF

12:46 PM - Feb 28, 2018


Coveney said Ireland was not “hardening” its position but was “simply holding” it.

“This isn’t trying to provoke, it’s not trying to reinterpret … We are simply translating what was agreed, albeit after a difficult negotiation, in December into a legal text. So nobody should be surprised.

“The Irish government has made it very clear – we’re not hardening our position, we’re simply holding our position. Yes, we want to move on to a proper and detailed discussion about what a future relationship is going to look like. We want that future relationship to be as close to the status quo as possible. We want the closest possible relationship with the UK, from a trade perspective, a political perspective, from a society perspective,” he said.
 
Why should we. Control comes not at a border but within the country. Anyone can jump on an inflatable and get to the U.K. anyway. The control comes when they arrive, they cannot work, receive benefits or whatever, can be deported etc etc. If a few goods are smuggled across the Irish border so what ?. Most goods are electronically checked in the originating country anyway and not by some guy in a uniform at a border. This whole issue is being blown out of all proportion by Remainers and the EU for their own political purposes......


Have you much experience of the border counties of Ireland.
 
They are largely a one reason party and that is unification. Pre GFA Sinn Fein considered that NI was an illegitimate state that they did not recognise. By agreeing to the principle of consent, this was SF acknowledging that NI would remain British until the majority vote otherwise. About as seismic a political change as you could get.

At the time they believed it would introduce power sharing and then allow Republicans the opportunity to shape an agreed future on the way to unity. And of course in the immediate term, remove London altogether.

I must say I don't get abstentionism. It strikes me of petty tokenism. The best 2 irish nationalist politicians in history were Parnell and O Connell and both created significant change from within the houses of parliament. Different times yes and also no offence to anyone at SF but there ain't any Daniel O Connells within them, but I think the point is relevant.
 
I must say I don't get abstentionism. It strikes me of petty tokenism. The best 2 irish nationalist politicians in history were Parnell and O Connell and both created significant change from within the houses of parliament. Different times yes and also no offence to anyone at SF but there ain't any Daniel O Connells within them, but I think the point is relevant.
It would just be another symbolic act for me, similar to McGuinness shaking hands with the Queen.

They don’t need to do it now though, there is no electoral gain to be had and therefore no reason to ask Nationalists to accept it now.
 
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