Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

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Barnfred 55 said:
Yeah, that's what I originally thought. Agree the majority in NI would need to be in favour first.

To an outsider like me, Irish Unity is an ideology that will come with an initial cost, financially, culturally and logistically. Same with Scottish Independence if that ever get's voted in. Do you not think there are some parallels with those Brexit voters who are prepared to suffer some hardships in the cause of sovereignty?
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You could make broad comparisons but they would be two completely different situations imo. The UK has knowingly made a deal that has made itself worse off than it was before. Not even sure if that has ever happened before in history. Even the most optimistic of Brexiteer admit there will be short to medium term pain and that they have no idea if it will pan out in the long term or, in their language, "wait and see".

Northern Ireland staying in the EU would be of net benefit to them. Tangible benefits too, the type you could spell out and quantify that go beyond saying "sovereignty" and "control our destiny" repeatedly.

If you're not from Ireland, it's hard to fathom how much we have yielded from being part of the EU, but we are worlds away from the country we used to be, and that's a very good thing in most of the areas that matter. The EU is far from perfect, and so is Ireland. But to say that we are better off than we were before we joined, and that it is largely from being a member state, would be an enormous understatement.

Plus, I think we're governed far better. Though our lot are a useless bunch at the best of times, I would take them a million times over the absolute car crash you have in Westminster at the moment. Our politicians don't openly and actively work against our interests for the most part and they cave to public pressure easily. That isn't always ideal, mind you. But they're at least accountable for their actions. From over here, it looks like Boris could take a dump in the middle of parliament and Pete would call it a powerful statement of freedom that has the EU quaking in its boots.
 
Prevenger17 said:
You could make broad comparisons but they would be two completely different situations imo. The UK has knowingly made a deal that has made itself worse off than it was before. Not even sure if that has ever happened before in history. Even the most optimistic of Brexiteer admit there will be short to medium term pain and that they have no idea if it will pan out in the long term or, in their language, "wait and see".

Northern Ireland staying in the EU would be of net benefit to them. Tangible benefits too, the type you could spell out and quantify that go beyond saying "sovereignty" and "control our destiny" repeatedly.

If you're not from Ireland, it's hard to fathom how much we have yielded from being part of the EU, but we are worlds away from the country we used to be, and that's a very good thing in most of the areas that matter. The EU is far from perfect, and so is Ireland. But to say that we are better off than we were before we joined, and that it is largely from being a member state, would be an enormous understatement.

Plus, I think we're governed far better. Though our lot are a useless bunch at the best of times, I would take them a million times over the absolute car crash you have in Westminster at the moment. Our politicians don't openly and actively work against our interests for the most part and they cave to public pressure easily. That isn't always ideal, mind you. But they're at least accountable for their actions. From over here, it looks like Boris could take a dump in the middle of parliament and Pete would call it a powerful statement of freedom that has the EU quaking in its boots.
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In fairness I never said or implied that it was the same thing. I asked if you saw any parallels and therefore had some empathy for those who see the ideology of sovereignty (in your case unity) as important to them.

From your answer, which didn't really answer my question, I believe you may be underestimating the financial impact of taking on board the Northern Ireland economy. You will have a third of your population not even contributing 10% of your national output. The UK has a large enough economy to absorb this but Ireland won't find it as easy. You have a pretty strong economy, especially for the size of your population, but you already have a very large National debt in comparison to GDP. I think the financial effect of a united Ireland, certainly initially, could be far more negative for your economy than the effect of Brexit on the UK, but still you will all happily go out and vote for a United Ireland tomorrow given the choice. Go figure.

And I do wish you'd stop taking "wait and see" out of context. As I've said before, it's not a case of Brexiteers waiting and seeing what happens now we're out. It's a specific response directed at those Remainers who are already assuming the worst is going to happen.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
It's a specific response directed at those Remainers who are already assuming the worst is going to happen.
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Its getting beyond tedious this line of attack.

No one is assuming that. What many remainers have said for years is that the pipeline of fantasy outcomes that sold this to the leavers, were mostly absolute bollox.

As were the evil stuff the EU do to us.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
And I do wish you'd stop taking "wait and see" out of context. As I've said before, it's not a case of Brexiteers waiting and seeing what happens now we're out. It's a specific response directed at those Remainers who are already assuming the worst is going to happen.
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I just haven't seen one Brexit supporter here raise one question or concern as to what happens next. Its all going swimmingly if you listen to them, even though we've had some posters directly spell out the huge issues they are personally facing in some detail.

Those posters aren't moaning, they are concerned about what happens next and are being told in response that they're being negative and have "had 4 years to prepare..." for the deal that was made only last week. The campaign is over, you won, and everyone has accepted it. Posters here are now looking for tangible signs that the current government are going to make something of it and are instead seeing the complete opposite. Your advice of "be positive" is not going to do anything for the people affected by this, so if you don't want to see negativity and are happy to "wait and see" , then just do it. Nobody's stopping you.
 
roydo said:
Its getting beyond tedious this line of attack.

No one is assuming that. What many remainers have said for years is that the pipeline of fantasy outcomes that sold this to the leavers, were mostly absolute bollox.

As were the evil stuff the EU do to us.
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It isn't a line of attack. If anything it's a line if defence and you need to understand the context before you come on the bounce.

I was pointing out that the only time that Brexit voters have used the term "let's wait and see" is when a Remain poster has said such and such is going to happen. For instance the eel supplier's business is going to fold. The OBR said output will reduce by 4%. We won't get any trade deals. etc etc. Our response has been that nobody knows that for certain, so "Let's wait and see" first. I don't see how, in itself, that is unreasonable.

Prev has misconstrued that by saying our attitude to Brexit in general now we are out is "Lets wait and see", which is fundamentally different, and why I pulled him up.
 
Prevenger17 said:
I just haven't seen one Brexit supporter here raise one question or concern as to what happens next. Its all going swimmingly if you listen to them, even though we've had some posters directly spell out the huge issues they are personally facing in some detail.
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You obviously don't read my answers to some of your other posts. I have expressed loads of concerns.
 
Barnfred 55 said:
In fairness I never said or implied that it was the same thing. I asked if you saw any parallels and therefore had some empathy for those who see the ideology of sovereignty (in your case unity) as important to them.

From your answer, which didn't really answer my question, I believe you may be underestimating the financial impact of taking on board the Northern Ireland economy. You will have a third of your population not even contributing 10% of your national output. The UK has a large enough economy to absorb this but Ireland won't find it as easy. You have a pretty strong economy, especially for the size of your population, but you already have a very large National debt in comparison to GDP. I think the financial effect of a united Ireland, certainly initially, could be far more negative for your economy than the effect of Brexit on the UK, but still you will all happily go out and vote for a United Ireland tomorrow given the choice. Go figure.

And I do wish you'd stop taking "wait and see" out of context. As I've said before, it's not a case of Brexiteers waiting and seeing what happens now we're out. It's a specific response directed at those Remainers who are already assuming the worst is going to happen.
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Some exploratory reading for you, health warning on the source granted.

www.sinnfein.ie

Sinn Féin publish 'Economic Benefits of a United Ireland' discussion paper - Pearse Doherty TD

www.sinnfein.ie
 
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