Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

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David McWilliams peice in the Irish Times.

Not sure about his rosy picture of the possibilities to the Irish economy, but talk of a federated Ireland pushed that way by economic realities is worth a hearing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/d...33938?mode=amp

DUP’s Brexit manoeuvring has done more to undermine the Union than Sinn Féin

Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 06:00
The break-up of the United Kingdom has just accelerated. The DUP, a party that never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity, has done more to undermine the Union than Sinn Féin.

As leaders of unionism in the north-east of this island, the DUP’s manoeuvring over the past few years has culminated in customs checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain for the first time since 1801. The English nationalists, otherwise known as Brexiteers, who lectured the world about the merits of buccaneering global free trade unencumbered by meddling Brussels, have ensured that the UK itself is actually a smaller free trade zone than it was before they started. Not only does the UK now have barriers with the EU, but it has barriers with itself. In short, the UK has declared, and successfully prosecuted, a trade war with itself.

The only ones smiling are Scottish nationalists, whose independence drive rolls on. At every twist in the Brexit saga, support for Scottish Independence has risen. Now polls suggest an independent Scotland could become a reality within a few years.

The Scottish Nationalist Party, a cosmopolitan, pro-European movement, won’t be long in turning its back on the wannabe-Scots of Antrim
English nationalism has made Scottish nationalism respectable. The Nats are picking up support among previously unionist, middle-class Scots, who only a few years ago were the bulwark against independence. Scotland wants to be European too.

The only thing that can stop the Scots now might be a Labour government in London, but that looks remote. The Conservatives have a parliamentary majority and the “plucky-little-England” Brexiteer spiel goes down well in previous Labour heartlands. Johnson has created a “red trouser/blue collar” alliance of the posh south and the hard north, under the flag of nationalism. He won’t offer that mantle to anyone else soon.

All this means that the UK is going through a constitutional storm and an all-out culture war, the likes of which it hasn’t seen since the 17th century. An unmitigated disaster for Ireland, the legacy of the 17th century includes unionism, whose successors now hold a majority in only two of the 32 counties of Ireland.

The next decade is going to be convulsive. The enormous Brexit benefits that might accrue to Ireland will be entirely dependent on Dublin managing the Irish consequence of the break-up of Britain.

This column has always maintained that Brexit has the potential to be highly positive for the Irish economy. The Irish economic model is less a national economy and more akin to a trading city-state, open to ideas, people and capital. We fuse international and local talent/capital and re-export services and products from here. This model is a 21st century version of the Florentine Republic, the Hanseatic trading-states or Shanghai in its 1920-1948 heyday.

There is a pressing issue for Ireland: how to incorporate unionists into a new federal island
Stick to that game plan and we should be ok. It means that the local bits we can’t trade – the public sector and the land-economy – need to remain competitive and productive, otherwise they drag the trading economy backwards.

Really that’s all local economic policy has to do. We must make sure that land prices fall by banning hoarding with a site-value tax and a “use it or lose it” approach to planning, and we must ensure the public sector doesn’t get too big and too expensive. Global trade and commercial innovation will look after the rest. It seems easy, but don’t underestimate how hard easy is.

As the Brexit reality sets in and the incipient political, economic, financial and social instability in the friendless, and fragile UK becomes clear, capital and talent will flood in here. The Republic of Ireland is the one common-law, American-friendly, trading entrepot with full access to the 500 million market of the EU.

The investment decisions in corporate boardrooms all over the world will favour Ireland. Existing networks and alliances will all count. Remember, we sell to people we know, and we do business with people we are comfortable with. So, Ireland is in a strong position to benefit from technology transfers, capital investment and migrating talent.

However, as demographics in the North and the possible breakup of Britain, make Irish unity more likely, there is a pressing issue for Ireland: how to incorporate unionists into a new federal island.

Politically, the third decade of the 21st century could be as dramatic as the third decade of the 20th century for the island. Let’s hope we all manage it better.
 
David McWilliams peice in the Irish Times.

Not sure about his rosy picture of the possibilities to the Irish economy, but talk of a federated Ireland pushed that way by economic realities is worth a hearing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/d...33938?mode=amp

DUP’s Brexit manoeuvring has done more to undermine the Union than Sinn Féin

Sat, Dec 12, 2020, 06:00
The break-up of the United Kingdom has just accelerated. The DUP, a party that never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity, has done more to undermine the Union than Sinn Féin.

As leaders of unionism in the north-east of this island, the DUP’s manoeuvring over the past few years has culminated in customs checks between Northern Ireland and Great Britain for the first time since 1801. The English nationalists, otherwise known as Brexiteers, who lectured the world about the merits of buccaneering global free trade unencumbered by meddling Brussels, have ensured that the UK itself is actually a smaller free trade zone than it was before they started. Not only does the UK now have barriers with the EU, but it has barriers with itself. In short, the UK has declared, and successfully prosecuted, a trade war with itself.

The only ones smiling are Scottish nationalists, whose independence drive rolls on. At every twist in the Brexit saga, support for Scottish Independence has risen. Now polls suggest an independent Scotland could become a reality within a few years.

The Scottish Nationalist Party, a cosmopolitan, pro-European movement, won’t be long in turning its back on the wannabe-Scots of Antrim
English nationalism has made Scottish nationalism respectable. The Nats are picking up support among previously unionist, middle-class Scots, who only a few years ago were the bulwark against independence. Scotland wants to be European too.

The only thing that can stop the Scots now might be a Labour government in London, but that looks remote. The Conservatives have a parliamentary majority and the “plucky-little-England” Brexiteer spiel goes down well in previous Labour heartlands. Johnson has created a “red trouser/blue collar” alliance of the posh south and the hard north, under the flag of nationalism. He won’t offer that mantle to anyone else soon.

All this means that the UK is going through a constitutional storm and an all-out culture war, the likes of which it hasn’t seen since the 17th century. An unmitigated disaster for Ireland, the legacy of the 17th century includes unionism, whose successors now hold a majority in only two of the 32 counties of Ireland.

The next decade is going to be convulsive. The enormous Brexit benefits that might accrue to Ireland will be entirely dependent on Dublin managing the Irish consequence of the break-up of Britain.

This column has always maintained that Brexit has the potential to be highly positive for the Irish economy. The Irish economic model is less a national economy and more akin to a trading city-state, open to ideas, people and capital. We fuse international and local talent/capital and re-export services and products from here. This model is a 21st century version of the Florentine Republic, the Hanseatic trading-states or Shanghai in its 1920-1948 heyday.

There is a pressing issue for Ireland: how to incorporate unionists into a new federal island
Stick to that game plan and we should be ok. It means that the local bits we can’t trade – the public sector and the land-economy – need to remain competitive and productive, otherwise they drag the trading economy backwards.

Really that’s all local economic policy has to do. We must make sure that land prices fall by banning hoarding with a site-value tax and a “use it or lose it” approach to planning, and we must ensure the public sector doesn’t get too big and too expensive. Global trade and commercial innovation will look after the rest. It seems easy, but don’t underestimate how hard easy is.

As the Brexit reality sets in and the incipient political, economic, financial and social instability in the friendless, and fragile UK becomes clear, capital and talent will flood in here. The Republic of Ireland is the one common-law, American-friendly, trading entrepot with full access to the 500 million market of the EU.

The investment decisions in corporate boardrooms all over the world will favour Ireland. Existing networks and alliances will all count. Remember, we sell to people we know, and we do business with people we are comfortable with. So, Ireland is in a strong position to benefit from technology transfers, capital investment and migrating talent.

However, as demographics in the North and the possible breakup of Britain, make Irish unity more likely, there is a pressing issue for Ireland: how to incorporate unionists into a new federal island.

Politically, the third decade of the 21st century could be as dramatic as the third decade of the 20th century for the island. Let’s hope we all manage it better.
The Health Service is going to be one of the biggest issues in any forthcoming reunification debate.

Unionists (ironically from their right-wing perspective) are already putting up access to the NHS as a barrier to holding any discussions, and are of course claiming that NI citizens from all sides would vote against reunification because of this issue and the non-entitlement to free healthcare for all in the Republic.

So this will have to addressed before any referendum takes place. The likely election of a SF government in the next election could and should IMO include a commitment to introduce free healthcare over a period of time, although how this will be paid for is of course the $64m question. It is very unlikely that a referendum on unification will pass without it.
 
The Health Service is going to be one of the biggest issues in any forthcoming reunification debate.

Unionists (ironically from their right-wing perspective) are already putting up access to the NHS as a barrier to holding any discussions, and are of course claiming that NI citizens from all sides would vote against reunification because of this issue and the non-entitlement to free healthcare for all in the Republic.

So this will have to addressed before any referendum takes place. The likely election of a SF government in the next election could and should IMO include a commitment to introduce free healthcare over a period of time, although how this will be paid for is of course the $64m question. It is very unlikely that a referendum on unification will pass without it.


I don’t think the NHS is as big a trump card as it would have been for unionists in yesteryear.

Tory austerity policies have left it in crisis and vulture funds and disaster capitalists are likely to strip it bare in de-regulated Brexitannia.

The NHS aside, I cannot think of one reason why the Catholics, Nationalists or just plain, pragmatic Protestants would vote to remain in the UK now that we have left the EU and English nationalism is making this country a very edgy, unhappy, angry place.

Plus there might be no need for a Referendum if Scotland leaves first and the United Kingdom ceases to exist in any meaningful form.
 
There's a long road ahead, but today's establishment of the sea border is the first step on the path back to reunification.


It has been a longer road than that, Carl.

It started in 1972 when the old Unionist hegemony at Stormont was abolished.

It was driven further along the road with the Anglo-Irish Agreement in 1986 then the Good Friday Agreement enshrined the Border Poll imperative in 1998.

But who would have thought a mad concept like Brexit would come along in 2016 and accelerate the process to the point where a UI in a decade is not out of the question.

Brexit means there will emerge an economic United Ireland over the next few years, thanks to the Single Market and Regulatory Alignment aspects of Johnson’s Withdrawal Agreement and the Irish Protocol and I would not be one bit surprised if NI adopted the Euro in about five or six years time.
 
I wouldn't make the mistake of regarding Scottish independence as a done deal. There's a large number of folk who are weary of political turmoil - with covid on top - and would appreciate a period of comparative calm. See how Brexit turns out first. That doesn't suit the Nats of course.
 
I wouldn't make the mistake of regarding Scottish independence as a done deal. There's a large number of folk who are weary of political turmoil - with covid on top - and would appreciate a period of comparative calm. See how Brexit turns out first. That doesn't suit the Nats of course.
Economically people weren't convinced last time. The case will be more compelling next time if the UK economy is cratering or even sluggish post-brexit and the case can be made for EU membership with the Scots (and the EU).
 
Economically people weren't convinced last time. The case will be more compelling next time if the UK economy is cratering or even sluggish post-brexit and the case can be made for EU membership with the Scots (and the EU).

I would love to wave goodbye to the SNP but unfortunately there is no economic case for Scotland. They tried last time based on oil revenues ‘Scottish Oil’, but that has disappeared. Any divorce from the U.K. carries with it a proportion of U.K. Debt, which is a tad large. The SNP have bought power with no end of freebies and giveaways, all subsidised by the rest of the U.K.. Scotland is an economic basket case with a myriad of social problems building up, which is why nearly 20% of them are based and work in England.

The other side of the coin is the EU, whose arse the SNP have now been licking for a while. Sturgeon thinks that by being nice and offering up fishing grounds that they will be welcomed with open arms. But the reality is that the EU does not need another economic basket case well used to receiving funds to prop up a single issue political party, even if they think it would wind up the rest of the U.K., which it wouldn’t. Spain obviously would oppose the move and the Scots themselves would have to join the Euro, maybe make a contribution (the ROI are now paying €1.5Bn per year instead of years of receiving funds) and would merely swap Westminster for Brussels.

But that’s for another thread.....
 
I would love to wave goodbye to the SNP but unfortunately there is no economic case for Scotland. They tried last time based on oil revenues ‘Scottish Oil’, but that has disappeared. Any divorce from the U.K. carries with it a proportion of U.K. Debt, which is a tad large. The SNP have bought power with no end of freebies and giveaways, all subsidised by the rest of the U.K.. Scotland is an economic basket case with a myriad of social problems building up, which is why nearly 20% of them are based and work in England.

The other side of the coin is the EU, whose arse the SNP have now been licking for a while. Sturgeon thinks that by being nice and offering up fishing grounds that they will be welcomed with open arms. But the reality is that the EU does not need another economic basket case well used to receiving funds to prop up a single issue political party, even if they think it would wind up the rest of the U.K., which it wouldn’t. Spain obviously would oppose the move and the Scots themselves would have to join the Euro, maybe make a contribution (the ROI are now paying €1.5Bn per year instead of years of receiving funds) and would merely swap Westminster for Brussels.

But that’s for another thread.....
Your argument is based on things reamining as they now are. Post Brexit there will be a chill wind blowing through this economy; and post Covid19 there will be another round of austerity that'll make 2010-2018 look like the New Deal. Besides that, the economic argument isn't the be all and end all. The bolts that fasten the Union together have been loosened in a number of political, social and cultural ways in the last 20 years and there really isn't a close bond between Scotland and the rest of the UK any longer. The way the Scots have managed Covid19 (and the Welsh for that matter) underlines the difference in thinking.
 
Northern Ireland escaping the worst of the Brexit nightmare.


Everyday matters like that will blur the distinction between the RoI and NI.

It's just the island of Ireland now in reality.
 
Maybe there could be a unified federal Ireland along the lines of the old provinces?
This is the Eire Nua concept proposed from the 1980s by Ruairi O’Bradaigh.

It hinges on the Unionist Population accepting that they not only have a place in an agreed future but also an opportunity to inform its future direction.

The Unionist elected representatives have refused to even countenance this ideal never mind even have it as a discussion point.

Note how the Alliance Party, the front of the NIO, welcome discussions regarding a border poll.

An exit strategy.
 
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