And not dealing properly with the Irish border may become an expensive political mess.
Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit
- Thread starter Charlie Sweet
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And not dealing properly with the Irish border may become an expensive political mess.
Will it be less than £10 billion and both sides want an open border
The UK treasury gives Northern Ireland £18 billion a year, that is £350 million per week. That figure seems to ring a bell. If the UK pulled out of the north of the island of Ireland, maybe that money could be used for the NHS say?
The political fallout from the threatened bully boy tactics of Johnson, Gove, Duncan Smith and Rees Mogg of a hard border on the island of Ireland with WTO tariffs, would be a call for a vote on unification. In other words a political crisis for the Tories and that is why there is a growing number of Tories getting cold feet with leaving the customs union and the single market. They see that way as not bringing a hard border to Ireland. But that doesn't stop the EU migrant 'conundrum' that has hysterically gripped the Tories.
It gives Scotland more than that you are quoting the Barnett formula for independent countries under the control of the UK which more than helps those countries to survive - you are totally going off track here nothing to do with Brexit - Southern Ireland has always been since the 1920s a separate country having its own currency i.e. The punt -
Before the troubles the trade remained without a hard border, negotiated terms can re try it again - the EU are hell bent on throwing scanners in the works or wooden spooning it - they were never ever involved in the Good Friday agreement untill now - both countries will need a soft border as they carry out more trade with each other and the UK than the EU!
Same applies to Scotland and Wales!
Negotiations will secure trade and movement!
Charlie Sweet
Player Valuation: £35m
Joey it's hard to keep up here...
So you're happy with unlimited migration of EU nationals to the UK from the EU? Because that's what would happen with a 'no border' approach.
But then that would make the UK government a liar as they said in December there would be "full allignment" with the EU.
Last one - nobody is saying the EU were directly involved with the Good Friday Agreement so you're just arguing with yourself on that one! The point that I, and others, are making is that the GFA gave the EU a guardian role for Irish rights in Northern Ireland that cannot now simply be taken away by a Hard Brexit.
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Poor Theresa, struggling to find a way out to save her political future. She is pleading with the Irish PM for a hard border to bail her out and stop the civil war raging in the Tory party.
Brexit: Theresa May 'asks' Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar for help on avoiding hard Irish border
Claim that Brexit preparations are reaching 'peak farce' with No 10 'asking other governments to come up with ideas'
Fears of a return to the Irish border checks of the past have provoked protests PA
Theresa May’s plans to avoid a hard Irish border after Brexit are in fresh doubt after it was claimed she had asked the Irish government for help in finding a solution.
Leo Varadkar, the Irish Prime Minister, said the two leaders were now working together following a face-to-face meeting in Belfastat the start of the week.
The idea of some sort of “customs union partnership” comes after London rejected Dublin’s plea for the UK to remain in the EU single market and customs union, to avoid the need for a hard border.
Johnson refuses to rule out quitting if he doesn’t get Brexit he wants
Last week, Michel Barnier, the EU Brexit negotiator, warned that border checks would be “unavoidable” if the UK pursued its intention to leave the EU’s trading rules.
One Labour MP said the development showed the Government’s Brexit preparations reaching “peak farce”, adding: “They are asking other governments to come up with ideas instead.”
However, a government source downplayed Mr Varadkar’s comments, insisting No 10 did not recognise the suggestion he had been asked to help.
Mr Varadkar is coming under growing pressure in Dublin to show last December’s UK-EU agreement – that there will be no return to border posts and checks – will be adhered to.
In the Irish parliament, he insisted there would be little difference between the current customs union and any new partnership that was reached.
“We have been asked by the British authorities to work with them at official levels on how that might be achieved,” Mr Varadkar said.It was “inevitable that border checks” would be introduced if the joint attempt to agree a customs partnership failed, he insisted.
Micheal Martin, the Fianna Fail leader, has raised fears that the border deal reached in December is not as “bulletproof” as it was described at the time.
It stated that, in the absence of an overarching EU-UK trade deal providing a solution, the entire UK would maintain “full alignment” with EU regulations.
But Ms May has downplayed the deal – once describing it as a “default default position” and refusing to say which goods would be covered by it.
Before Christmas, she also refused to rule out cameras at the Northern Ireland border, telling MPs: “We are not going to give a running commentary on every detail of our negotiations.”
Since then, the Prime Minister – under pressure from Brexiteers – has repeated her insistence that the UK will leave the single market and customs union regardless.
READ MORE
“Leaving the customs union and the single market means creating a hard border on the island of Ireland. The idea that Theresa May is now begging the Republic of Ireland to solve a problem she has created is ridiculous.”
Tom Brake, the Liberal Democrat Brexit spokesman and supporter of the anti-Brexit Best for Britain campaign, said: “I am crossing my fingers that the Irish government can make the UK Government see sense.”
Mr Barnier has said “full alignment” is being drafted for the legally binding withdrawal agreement that the UK must sign in order to move to talks about the transition or future relationship".
Help! Not just anybody
Help! You know I need someone
Help!
Poor Theresa, struggling to find a way out to save her political future. She is pleading with the Irish PM for a hard border to bail her out and stop the civil war raging in the Tory party.
Brexit: Theresa May 'asks' Irish Prime Minister Leo Varadkar for help on avoiding hard Irish border
Claim that Brexit preparations are reaching 'peak farce' with No 10 'asking other governments to come up with ideas'
- Rob Merrick Deputy Political Editor
- @Rob_Merrick
Fears of a return to the Irish border checks of the past have provoked protests PA
Theresa May’s plans to avoid a hard Irish border after Brexit are in fresh doubt after it was claimed she had asked the Irish government for help in finding a solution.
Leo Varadkar, the Irish Prime Minister, said the two leaders were now working together following a face-to-face meeting in Belfastat the start of the week.
The idea of some sort of “customs union partnership” comes after London rejected Dublin’s plea for the UK to remain in the EU single market and customs union, to avoid the need for a hard border.
Johnson refuses to rule out quitting if he doesn’t get Brexit he wants
Last week, Michel Barnier, the EU Brexit negotiator, warned that border checks would be “unavoidable” if the UK pursued its intention to leave the EU’s trading rules.
One Labour MP said the development showed the Government’s Brexit preparations reaching “peak farce”, adding: “They are asking other governments to come up with ideas instead.”
However, a government source downplayed Mr Varadkar’s comments, insisting No 10 did not recognise the suggestion he had been asked to help.
Mr Varadkar is coming under growing pressure in Dublin to show last December’s UK-EU agreement – that there will be no return to border posts and checks – will be adhered to.
In the Irish parliament, he insisted there would be little difference between the current customs union and any new partnership that was reached.
“We have been asked by the British authorities to work with them at official levels on how that might be achieved,” Mr Varadkar said.It was “inevitable that border checks” would be introduced if the joint attempt to agree a customs partnership failed, he insisted.
Micheal Martin, the Fianna Fail leader, has raised fears that the border deal reached in December is not as “bulletproof” as it was described at the time.
It stated that, in the absence of an overarching EU-UK trade deal providing a solution, the entire UK would maintain “full alignment” with EU regulations.
But Ms May has downplayed the deal – once describing it as a “default default position” and refusing to say which goods would be covered by it.
Before Christmas, she also refused to rule out cameras at the Northern Ireland border, telling MPs: “We are not going to give a running commentary on every detail of our negotiations.”
Since then, the Prime Minister – under pressure from Brexiteers – has repeated her insistence that the UK will leave the single market and customs union regardless.
READ MORE
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- British fruit farmer cuts hundreds of jobs over Brexit uncertainty
“Leaving the customs union and the single market means creating a hard border on the island of Ireland. The idea that Theresa May is now begging the Republic of Ireland to solve a problem she has created is ridiculous.”
Tom Brake, the Liberal Democrat Brexit spokesman and supporter of the anti-Brexit Best for Britain campaign, said: “I am crossing my fingers that the Irish government can make the UK Government see sense.”
Mr Barnier has said “full alignment” is being drafted for the legally binding withdrawal agreement that the UK must sign in order to move to talks about the transition or future relationship".
It had everything to do with the UK leaving the EU. Northern Ireland will not be leaving the customs union and the single market, so any politician that says the UK is leaving the customs union and the single market is not telling the truth unless they say Northern Ireland wont be. May has been forced to plead with the Irish PM to come to her rescue and allow her to renege on what she said in December. She is pleading with the Irish PM to stop EU migrants coming into the UK through Ireland. It wouldn't surprise me if she pleads for Ireland to leave the EU, as that would in one fail swoop allow the UK to leave the customs union and the single market. The island of Ireland has become too big and too complicated for the UK government to get its head around. They can't have their cake and eat it.
Woolly Blue
Player Valuation: £80m
Thank Christ for that !
Because of my heritage, I'm vaguely arsed about it, but I remember, pre-referendum, talking to both pro and anti Brexit folk about the Irish border and there was a pretty much unanimous "meh" in response. If the Tories hadn't shot themselves in the foot in the last election, I doubt it'd be anywhere near as high on the agenda as it is now.
There was no way the wider British public had any idea of the complexities of how the border would ever be resolved post Brexit. Now it would be no surprise at all for it to collapse the Tory government once the DUP walk due to NI being given special status.
Charlie Sweet
Player Valuation: £35m
I don't know. from a technical and legal point of view the Good Friday Agreement was always going to stop most of the Vote Leave demands.
Funny enough - and this is the first time I've ever said this - John Major had it spot on with his warnings before the election about the implications of the Irish border question for Brexit
Some are showing their true colours with attempting to leave the EU. As soon as there is an obstacle then it is 'let's change the rules to suit our agenda, because we can't do what we promised'. As well as, 'we never told the people in the north of the island of Ireland, that your democratic vote, (the Good Friday Agreement being the highest percentage vote for anything in UK electoral history), will be ignored'. So much for democracy as they shout about the 'undemocratic' EU.
Not surprising that the likes of Hoey and some Tories want to get rid of the Good Friday Agreement, and the Northern Ireland Act 1989, as they stand in the way of Northern Ireland leaving the customs union and the single market. They want to renege on an international agreement because the reality has become all to evident, the north of the island of Ireland will not be leaving the customs union and the single market. Hoey has gambled her political entity on the UK leaving the customs union and the single market, as has her mates in the Tory party, even when it has been pointed out that Northern Ireland can't.
Hoey never even mentioned the Good Friday Agreement during the campaign and even pooh poohed Tony Blair and Major when they did. She never said, “I think there is a need for a cold rational look at the Belfast agreement' during the run up to the leave vote. What deceitfulness to now bring it up now because it is standing in the way of the UK leaving the customs union and the single market. Hoey has intervened to save the May's political bacon as she is up the swanny without a paddle, agreeing that Northern Ireland will not be leaving the EU and therefore annoying by the DUP who she relies on for her parliamentary majority. It has taken near 18 months for some to waken up to the fact that what they promised may not be delivered without some shifty undemocratic moves.
Brexit
Ireland condemns Kate Hoey's 'reckless' Good Friday agreement remarks
Irish deputy PM says talking down accord could undermine peace in Northern Ireland
Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent
@lisaocarroll
Tue 20 Feb 2018 11.20 GMTLast modified on Tue 20 Feb 2018 11.21 GMT
Kate Hoey’s comments were also roundly condemned by Labour’s shadow Northern Ireland secretary, Owen Smith, who questioned their timing Photograph: Nils Jorgensen/Rex/Shutterstock
Ireland’s deputy prime minister has condemned Labour MP Kate Hoey for “reckless” and “irresponsible” remarks after she declared that the Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland 20 years ago, was “unsustainable”.
Her comments, coming swiftly after similar comments made by former Conservative Northern Ireland secretary Owen Paterson and Brexiter MEP Daniel Hannan, were also roundly condemned by Labour’s shadow Northern Irelandsecretary, Owen Smith, who questioned their timing.
The row comes as British and EU negotiators start two days of talks in Brussels, concentrating on Ireland and the Irish border on Tuesday.
Simon Coveney, Ireland’s deputy prime minister, said on Tuesday morning that talking down the peace accord that saw the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries lay down their arms, potentially undermined peace in the region.
4h
Darren McCaffrey
✔@DMcCaffreySKY
Numerous #Brexiteers @KateHoeyMP @DanielJHannan and now @OwenPaterson calling for end of Good Friday Agreement. Surely a very dangerous strategy? When Blair/Major warned #Brexit was a threat to peace process - were they right? https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/964531995421368321 …
https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/965880394494234624
Simon Coveney
✔@simoncoveney
Talking down Good Friday Agreement because it raises serious and genuine questions of those pursuing #Brexit is not only irresponsible but reckless and potentially undermines the foundations of a fragile peace process in Northern Ireland that should never be taken for granted
9:26 AM - Feb 20, 2018 · Dublin City, Ireland
Her remarks comes as an intense round of political and diplomatic activity begins in Dublin, Belfast and London in an effort to restart talks to restore the Northern Ireland assembly after the collapse of negotiations last week. Karen Bradley, the Northern Ireland secretary, will make a statement in the Commons on Tuesday afternoon.
“I think there is a need for a cold rational look at the Belfast agreement,” Hoey said in the Huffington Post on Monday. “Mandatory coalition is not sustainable in the long term … We need to face reality - Sinn Féin don’t particularly want a successful Northern Ireland. They want a united Ireland,” she continued.
Hoey, from Antrim, is a staunch supporter of Brexit and sits on the House of Commons Northern Ireland affairs select committee.
Smith questioned the timing of Hoey’s remarks.
https://twitter.com/OwenSmith_MP/status/965663771413897216
Owen Smith
✔@OwenSmith_MP
.@KateHoeyMP @OwenPaterson & @DanielJHannan are reckless & utterly wrong to question the value and sustainability of the Good Friday Agreement. Their concerted, transparent effort to undermine the GFA is driven by their blind, misplaced faith in Brexit. They should know better.
7:05 PM - Feb 19, 2018
Peter Hain, a former Labour Northern Ireland secretary who was involved in the process that saw the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries lay down their arms, said the remarks showed Brexiters were “willing to sacrifice almost anything on the altar of a hard Brexit” while Labour’s shadow Brexit secretary described them as “deplorable”.
The attack on the Good Friday agreement started at the weekend after an article by Hannan in the Telegraph. Tweeting the piece, Paterson remarked that the agreement had “outlived its use”.
“Their concerted, transparent effort to undermine the GFA is driven by their blind, misplaced faith in Brexit. They should know better,” said Smith.
On Monday evening, Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, urged Bradley to set a budget and take key decisions about the region’s schools, hospitals and infrastructure".
Not surprising that the likes of Hoey and some Tories want to get rid of the Good Friday Agreement, and the Northern Ireland Act 1989, as they stand in the way of Northern Ireland leaving the customs union and the single market. They want to renege on an international agreement because the reality has become all to evident, the north of the island of Ireland will not be leaving the customs union and the single market. Hoey has gambled her political entity on the UK leaving the customs union and the single market, as has her mates in the Tory party, even when it has been pointed out that Northern Ireland can't.
Hoey never even mentioned the Good Friday Agreement during the campaign and even pooh poohed Tony Blair and Major when they did. She never said, “I think there is a need for a cold rational look at the Belfast agreement' during the run up to the leave vote. What deceitfulness to now bring it up now because it is standing in the way of the UK leaving the customs union and the single market. Hoey has intervened to save the May's political bacon as she is up the swanny without a paddle, agreeing that Northern Ireland will not be leaving the EU and therefore annoying by the DUP who she relies on for her parliamentary majority. It has taken near 18 months for some to waken up to the fact that what they promised may not be delivered without some shifty undemocratic moves.
Brexit
Ireland condemns Kate Hoey's 'reckless' Good Friday agreement remarks
Irish deputy PM says talking down accord could undermine peace in Northern Ireland
Lisa O'Carroll Brexit correspondent
@lisaocarroll
Tue 20 Feb 2018 11.20 GMTLast modified on Tue 20 Feb 2018 11.21 GMT
Kate Hoey’s comments were also roundly condemned by Labour’s shadow Northern Ireland secretary, Owen Smith, who questioned their timing Photograph: Nils Jorgensen/Rex/Shutterstock
Ireland’s deputy prime minister has condemned Labour MP Kate Hoey for “reckless” and “irresponsible” remarks after she declared that the Good Friday agreement that brought peace to Northern Ireland 20 years ago, was “unsustainable”.
Her comments, coming swiftly after similar comments made by former Conservative Northern Ireland secretary Owen Paterson and Brexiter MEP Daniel Hannan, were also roundly condemned by Labour’s shadow Northern Irelandsecretary, Owen Smith, who questioned their timing.
The row comes as British and EU negotiators start two days of talks in Brussels, concentrating on Ireland and the Irish border on Tuesday.
Simon Coveney, Ireland’s deputy prime minister, said on Tuesday morning that talking down the peace accord that saw the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries lay down their arms, potentially undermined peace in the region.
4h
Darren McCaffrey✔@DMcCaffreySKY
Numerous #Brexiteers @KateHoeyMP @DanielJHannan and now @OwenPaterson calling for end of Good Friday Agreement. Surely a very dangerous strategy? When Blair/Major warned #Brexit was a threat to peace process - were they right? https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/964531995421368321 …
https://twitter.com/simoncoveney/status/965880394494234624
Simon Coveney✔@simoncoveney
Talking down Good Friday Agreement because it raises serious and genuine questions of those pursuing #Brexit is not only irresponsible but reckless and potentially undermines the foundations of a fragile peace process in Northern Ireland that should never be taken for granted
9:26 AM - Feb 20, 2018 · Dublin City, Ireland
Her remarks comes as an intense round of political and diplomatic activity begins in Dublin, Belfast and London in an effort to restart talks to restore the Northern Ireland assembly after the collapse of negotiations last week. Karen Bradley, the Northern Ireland secretary, will make a statement in the Commons on Tuesday afternoon.
“I think there is a need for a cold rational look at the Belfast agreement,” Hoey said in the Huffington Post on Monday. “Mandatory coalition is not sustainable in the long term … We need to face reality - Sinn Féin don’t particularly want a successful Northern Ireland. They want a united Ireland,” she continued.
Hoey, from Antrim, is a staunch supporter of Brexit and sits on the House of Commons Northern Ireland affairs select committee.
Smith questioned the timing of Hoey’s remarks.
https://twitter.com/OwenSmith_MP/status/965663771413897216
Owen Smith✔@OwenSmith_MP
.@KateHoeyMP @OwenPaterson & @DanielJHannan are reckless & utterly wrong to question the value and sustainability of the Good Friday Agreement. Their concerted, transparent effort to undermine the GFA is driven by their blind, misplaced faith in Brexit. They should know better.
7:05 PM - Feb 19, 2018
Peter Hain, a former Labour Northern Ireland secretary who was involved in the process that saw the IRA and loyalist paramilitaries lay down their arms, said the remarks showed Brexiters were “willing to sacrifice almost anything on the altar of a hard Brexit” while Labour’s shadow Brexit secretary described them as “deplorable”.
The attack on the Good Friday agreement started at the weekend after an article by Hannan in the Telegraph. Tweeting the piece, Paterson remarked that the agreement had “outlived its use”.
“Their concerted, transparent effort to undermine the GFA is driven by their blind, misplaced faith in Brexit. They should know better,” said Smith.
On Monday evening, Arlene Foster, the DUP leader, urged Bradley to set a budget and take key decisions about the region’s schools, hospitals and infrastructure".
Hoey is one horrible cow, more hard nosed than the DUP and tories. She should be kicked out of the Labour party.
Hoey said this before the vote.
"Nor will Brexit lead to border problems in NI. The Republic will remain outside the Schengen Zone and will thus retain its border controls. This will allow it to prevent Dublin becoming a back-door into the UK. Personal travel between NI and the Republic has always been easy, in or out of the EU, and even during the Troubles there were few difficulties. Even if some documentation of freight trade is required, in the age of the internet this will not involve hold-ups at the border".
Did she ever ask Dublin for its opinion on this matter? No.
Did she tell the British people loud and clear, that it will not be the UK that controls its borders but the Irish Republic? No.
Hoey just arrogantly assumed that Dublin would do as it is told. And as far as, 'in the age of the internet this will not involve hold-ups at the border' that has proved to be a complete farcical thing as Davis has found out.
The continued assault on the Good Friday Agreement will be gaining ground in some circles, in the attempt to railroad over the democratic wishes of the Northern Irish people. Not surprising really.
"Nor will Brexit lead to border problems in NI. The Republic will remain outside the Schengen Zone and will thus retain its border controls. This will allow it to prevent Dublin becoming a back-door into the UK. Personal travel between NI and the Republic has always been easy, in or out of the EU, and even during the Troubles there were few difficulties. Even if some documentation of freight trade is required, in the age of the internet this will not involve hold-ups at the border".
Did she ever ask Dublin for its opinion on this matter? No.
Did she tell the British people loud and clear, that it will not be the UK that controls its borders but the Irish Republic? No.
Hoey just arrogantly assumed that Dublin would do as it is told. And as far as, 'in the age of the internet this will not involve hold-ups at the border' that has proved to be a complete farcical thing as Davis has found out.
The continued assault on the Good Friday Agreement will be gaining ground in some circles, in the attempt to railroad over the democratic wishes of the Northern Irish people. Not surprising really.
"even during the Troubles there were few difficulties"......what planet is she living on ? She has obviously never crossed the border judging by that statement. Or maybe she was waved through due to her privileged status while the rest of us queued up for ages to get through security. Utterly clueless.
Never knew David Lammy grew up in North Belfast lol
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