Current Affairs Irish Border and Brexit

[peteblue]

Think this was missed Pete. Are you suggesting above that the Republic of Ireland should willingly become a part of the UK? Seriously...….

Of course not, that would be stupid, just as stupid in fact as NI remaining in the EU when the U.K. leaves......

 

[Charlie Sweet]

Of course not, that would be stupid, just as stupid in fact as NI remaining in the EU when the U.K. leaves......

Pete that's not a reasonable comparison in any sense.

The Republic has no constitutional relationship with the UK of any kind (after a wee bit of bitter history).

By comparison Northern Ireland has a major constitutional engagement with the rest of Ireland in the sense the Good Friday Agreement legislates for a reunification process once a specific threshold has been reached. That's unique across the world so the place is already very different. Not to mention common energy agreements and agricultural protocols. And the small matter of c40-50% of the population being "Irish" rather than "British" but hey ho. Small details eh Pete?!

 

[peteblue]

Pete that's not a reasonable comparison in any sense.

The Republic has no constitutional relationship with the UK of any kind (after a wee bit of bitter history).

By comparison Northern Ireland has a major constitutional engagement with the rest of Ireland in the sense the Good Friday Agreement legislates for a reunification process once a specific threshold has been reached. That's unique across the world so the place is already very different. Not to mention common energy agreements and agricultural protocols. And the small matter of c40-50% of the population being "Irish" rather than "British" but hey ho. Small details eh Pete?!

It may not be a reasonable comparison from a certain side, but an absolute similar one from another view, and that’s my point really. There are people on both sides of that border and it is grossly unfair to treat either side differently. This issue should have been discussed and agreed by representatives from NI and ROI to tell us what they want and then endorsed by the U.K. and the EU......

 

[Ruairi77]

It may not be a reasonable comparison from a certain side, but an absolute similar one from another view, and that’s my point really. There are people on both sides of that border and it is grossly unfair to treat either side differently. This issue should have been discussed and agreed by representatives from NI and ROI to tell us what they want and then endorsed by the U.K. and the EU......

The border issue was discussed and agreed by representatives from NI and ROI and then endorsed by the U.K. and the EU, and voted on in NI and ROI. It's called the Good Friday Agreement. It provides the framework for peace on the Island.
Your views on this align perfectly with the DUP which, once again, shows me that your opinion is driven by blind nationalism.

 

[peteblue]

The border issue was discussed and agreed by representatives from NI and ROI and then endorsed by the U.K. and the EU, and voted on in NI and ROI. It's called the Good Friday Agreement. It provides the framework for peace on the Island.
Your views on this align perfectly with the DUP which, once again, shows me that your opinion is driven by blind nationalism.

As opposed to your views which are also based on blind nationalism, but just to a different country......if you cannot understand that both sides need to be treated equally and fairly, then there is little point in discussing......

 

[Ruairi77]

As opposed to your views which are also based on blind nationalism, but just to a different country......if you cannot understand that both sides need to be treated equally and fairly, then there is little point in discussing......

they're not tho. I voted yes for the GFA which gave up articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution. (our constitutional claim to NI). I have no problem with NI remaining part of the UK but I think it makes sense for it to also remain in the single market in order to avoid a hard border. For me, it's all about avoiding a return to the violence of the past. If, one day, the people of NI vote for reunification, then that's fine too but it's not a priority for me.
There's a lot of hot air about breaking up the union, as if NI operates under all the same rules as GB. It has always been a special case and remaining in the UK but the EU market is no different. There is also the benefit of an economic upturn for NI.
The only reason I can see for denying this is nationalism, unless you can give me another.

 

[peteblue]

they're not tho. I voted yes for the GFA which gave up articles 2 and 3 of the Irish constitution. (our constitutional claim to NI). I have no problem with NI remaining part of the UK but I think it makes sense for it to also remain in the single market in order to avoid a hard border. For me, it's all about avoiding a return to the violence of the past. If, one day, the people of NI vote for reunification, then that's fine too but it's not a priority for me.
There's a lot of hot air about breaking up the union, as if NI operates under all the same rules as GB. It has always been a special case and remaining in the UK but the EU market is no different. There is also the benefit of an economic upturn for NI.
The only reason I can see for denying this is nationalism, unless you can give me another.

You still seem unable to view this from the other side. It makes sense to you for NI to remain in the EU (single market) to avoid a hard border. Conversely it may make sense to NI for the ROI to also leave the EU so as to avoid a hard border. Why does your view override another view. The U.K. has stated and put into law that there will not be a hard border. The ROI and the EU have not done similar. So who is creating the problem.

The people of NI can indeed vote for Independence or vote to join a union with another country (ROI) and that is their prerogative. The U.K. is fine with any of its constituent parts voting to leave the union, as demonstrated with the Scottish referendum.

There is as much an economic opportunity for NI as part of the U.K. than there is as part of the EU, considering most of its trade is with the U.K.

Now I know you won’t agree with any of this, and I can see your point of view as to why, but it’s a one sided view. Until or unless both sides of the border are treated with equal respect there will be no movement. The U.K. is leaving the EU, NI as part of the U.K. is leaving the EU. If a ‘special deal’ is to be done, and it should be, then perhaps it should be done for both parties of the GFA and the shared border......

 

[Carl O'Ancelotti]

The U.K. has stated and put into law that there will not be a hard border. The ROI and the EU have not done similar. So who is creating the problem.

The UK is, by leaving the EU. There is an international treaty on the position of the border, approved by 2 referendums. Also if you don't have a border with the EU post-Brexit you won't really have left it will you, as people will still be free to enter the UK from the EU.

The U.K. is fine with any of its constituent parts voting to leave the union, as demonstrated with the Scottish referendum.

Fine ? Is this the same Scottish referendum as the one that politicians from all Westminster parties pulled out all the stops in to prevent a Yes vote, pleading with the Scots not to break up the UK ? The UK was anything but fine with the notion of Scotland leaving. In the same referendum campaign Scots were told that their future in the EU would be safer if they stayed in the UK. What a lie that was.

There is as much an economic opportunity for NI as part of the U.K. than there is as part of the EU, considering most of its trade is with the U.K.

And there is an even better opportunity if NI stays in the single market and customs union as it would then be in a position of having the best of both worlds. But the myopia of the party that is propping up Teresa May's government prevents this from happening, who prefer instead to deprive their own people of this unique opportunity and to continue to pursue their own selfish interests.

 

[Ruairi77]

You still seem unable to view this from the other side. It makes sense to you for NI to remain in the EU (single market) to avoid a hard border. Conversely it may make sense to NI for the ROI to also leave the EU so as to avoid a hard border. Why does your view override another view. The U.K. has stated and put into law that there will not be a hard border. The ROI and the EU have not done similar. So who is creating the problem.

The people of NI can indeed vote for Independence or vote to join a union with another country (ROI) and that is their prerogative. The U.K. is fine with any of its constituent parts voting to leave the union, as demonstrated with the Scottish referendum.

There is as much an economic opportunity for NI as part of the U.K. than there is as part of the EU, considering most of its trade is with the U.K.

Now I know you won’t agree with any of this, and I can see your point of view as to why, but it’s a one sided view. Until or unless both sides of the border are treated with equal respect there will be no movement. The U.K. is leaving the EU, NI as part of the U.K. is leaving the EU. If a ‘special deal’ is to be done, and it should be, then perhaps it should be done for both parties of the GFA and the shared border......

your basic argument seems to be 'NI remaining in the EU common market while still part of the UK' is just the same as 'ROI leaving the EU common market and joining a UK economic area'.
You're right, it would achieve the same result with regard to the border but you're overlooking the fact that the ROI have not asked to leave the EU, you're also ignoring history. If you take these two factors in to account, both situations are completely different.
Me, failing to take on board the idea that the RoI should leave the common market for the sake of a peaceful brexit is not an example of 'me failing to see the other point of view', more you showing a complete lack of awareness with regard to the Island of Ireland.
The vast majority of people in GB, NI and RoI would be happy with a Brexit that meant NI stayed in the common market.

 

[peteblue]

your basic argument seems to be 'NI remaining in the EU common market while still part of the UK' is just the same as 'ROI leaving the EU common market and joining a UK economic area'.
You're right, it would achieve the same result with regard to the border but you're overlooking the fact that the ROI have not asked to leave the EU, you're also ignoring history. If you take these two factors in to account, both situations are completely different.
Me, failing to take on board the idea that the RoI should leave the common market for the sake of a peaceful brexit is not an example of 'me failing to see the other point of view', more you showing a complete lack of awareness with regard to the Island of Ireland.
The vast majority of people in GB, NI and RoI would be happy with a Brexit that meant NI stayed in the common market.

You are right that the ROI have not asked to leave the EU, and nor have NI asked to leave the U.K.

Let me try and explain it another way. If it had been the ROI who had decided to leave the EU and not the U.K. would you have been happy either putting in a hard border or being told that you had to remain within the EU single market ?...

 

[Ruairi77]

You are right that the ROI have not asked to leave the EU, and nor have NI asked to leave the U.K.

Let me try and explain it another way. If it had been the ROI who had decided to leave the EU and not the U.K. would you have been happy either putting in a hard border or being told that you had to remain within the EU single market ?...

NI would not be leaving the UK.

If the RoI had decided to leave the EU, the border situation would have been sorted well before any referendum, I don't mean to sound condescending but I'm not sure you grasp what a major part the border does (or doesnt) play in peoples lives in Ireland.

Even if the majority in Ireland hated the EU, they'd suffer it if it meant no hard border.
A lot of people in Ireland feel that both the UK and RoI being part of the EU was a major contributor to peace.

 

[Armaghtoffee]

The UK is, by leaving the EU. There is an international treaty on the position of the border, approved by 2 referendums. Also if you don't have a border with the EU post-Brexit you won't really have left it will you, as people will still be free to enter the UK from the EU.

Fine ? Is this the same Scottish referendum as the one that politicians from all Westminster parties pulled out all the stops in to prevent a Yes vote, pleading with the Scots not to break up the UK ? The UK was anything but fine with the notion of Scotland leaving. In the same referendum campaign Scots were told that their future in the EU would be safer if they stayed in the UK. What a lie that was.

And there is an even better opportunity if NI stays in the single market and customs union as it would then be in a position of having the best of both worlds. But the myopia of the party that is propping up Teresa May's government prevents this from happening, who prefer instead to deprive their own people of this unique opportunity and to continue to pursue their own selfish interests.

Great post.

 

[dublinbluenose]

A lot of people in Ireland feel that both the UK and RoI being part of the EU was a major contributor to peace.

It wouldn't have happened without it, not for another 25 or 30 years at least anyway.

Foster was opposed to the GFA from the very beginning and still is.

EDIT

It annoys me no end that most MP's don't understand just how hard fought and difficult it was to go from the desperation of the late 80's to the euphoria of the late 90's.

It's not hyperbole talk of a return to it with a hard border.

 

[peteblue]

It wouldn't have happened without it, not for another 25 or 30 years at least anyway.

Foster was opposed to the GFA from the very beginning and still is.

I think it would within a few years, nine eleven changed US perceptions on terrorism forever. After 911 everything was different.......

 

[dublinbluenose]

I think it would within a few years, nine eleven changed US perceptions on terrorism forever. After 911 everything was different.......

I'm not sure what 911 has to do with it Pete?