2024/25 Harrison Armstrong

[Blast_of_Cannock]

Gavin McCann is a shout mate. You forget how good Jeffers was round 1 here he was excellent. Personally I think there are loads who I think we should have kept who went off the top of my head, Rooney, Barkley, Steve McNahon, Dunne, Duffy, Ball.

I think we’ve particularly failed young players from 2016 onwards.

There's a few who we should have got rid of sooner too. Pennington, Garbutt, Davies, Holgate. Hung around like a bad stink.

 

[Gallaeo]

Gavin McCann is a shout mate. You forget how good Jeffers was round 1 here he was excellent. Personally I think there are loads who I think we should have kept who went off the top of my head, Rooney, Barkley, Steve McNahon, Dunne, Duffy, Ball.

I think we’ve particularly failed young players from 2016 onwards.

Some of those lads forced a move of not all. Redkpm Barkley, Jeffers, dunne and Duffy could have been a real set off players for us

 

[Ryan Baker]

Don't forget George green

 

[heatmeiser]

Other teams give kids a chance Citeh O'reilly Lewis. The [Poor language removed] Bradley,Elliott etc.If he is good enough get him in

Bradley had a season at Bolton when he was Armstrong's age. Elliott was on loan at Blackburn when he was 18.

It's perfectly normal and really beneficial for young players to get a full season of competitive football before joining the first team

 

[catcherintherye]

All of that is right but the last bit is key. Giving a young player a chance knowing the other 10 will probably be enough to win anyway and can carry him through the game is so different to putting a player in and saying if you don’t do your job here we’re screwed. Particularly when it comes to attacking players we’re generally saying ‘go and win is the game’ as opposed to ‘go out and enjoy yourself’ like sides like city are.

It's funny really, I kind of think we do that but too, like we certainly did we Gordon, and to an extend with Barkley too. Barkley was very highly rated, but there's definitely an argument that Gordon would not have been given game time at any of the top teams as a young player, and probably at most Premier league teams. Indeed had it not been for the war, it's probably unlikely he would have got game time here.

You can make a similar case for DCL too.

You look at the top teams, like Nketiah left for Palace, Liverpool have a problem getting games for the likes of Quansag, Elliot, Morton etc who will all leave. City have lost Palmer because they couldn't get him game time.

I think there's a point in time when a player wants to be a "first choice".

So the TLDR from this for me, is that basically everyone struggles to bring in young players, in different ways.

The only teams I see do it tend to be teams like Southampton/Burnley who get relegated, or Brighton who seem to be able to buck the trend.

 

[voodoobloo]

It's funny really, I kind of think we do that but too, like we certainly did we Gordon, and to an extend with Barkley too. Barkley was very highly rated, but there's definitely an argument that Gordon would not have been given game time at any of the top teams as a young player, and probably at most Premier league teams. Indeed had it not been for the war, it's probably unlikely he would have got game time here.

You can make a similar case for DCL too.

You look at the top teams, like Nketiah left for Palace, Liverpool have a problem getting games for the likes of Quansag, Elliot, Morton etc who will all leave. City have lost Palmer because they couldn't get him game time.

I think there's a point in time when a player wants to be a "first choice".

So the TLDR from this for me, is that basically everyone struggles to bring in young players, in different ways.

The only teams I see do it tend to be teams like Southampton/Burnley who get relegated, or Brighton who seem to be able to buck the trend.

Brighton are owned by one of the most advanced sports data companies in the world. You see how well Ipswich did last year in terms of recruitment when they had access to Jamestown, but as soon as Tony Bloom turned the data tap off (Jamestown have a strict one team per league policy and Brighton will always be dominant), it’ll be interesting to see the impact.

 

[catcherintherye]

Brighton are owned by one of the most advanced sports data companies in the world. You see how well Ipswich did last year in terms of recruitment when they had access to Jamestown, but as soon as Tony Bloom turned the data tap off (Jamestown have a strict one team per league policy and Brighton will always be dominant), it’ll be interesting to see the impact.

I think it's a valid point. I also think, to some extent Ipswich recruited the sort of players you'd expect, younger players, good on stats. The problem is it doesn't really work that well, in not cases over the short to medium term.

 

[jinkyali]

Brighton are owned by one of the most advanced sports data companies in the world. You see how well Ipswich did last year in terms of recruitment when they had access to Jamestown, but as soon as Tony Bloom turned the data tap off (Jamestown have a strict one team per league policy and Brighton will always be dominant), it’ll be interesting to see the impact.

Ipswich are struggling because the manager is stubborn and he bought Burnley CB and goalie from the previous season.

 

[Bedfordblue]

Don't forget George green

I’ll raise you a J.P. Kissock.

 

[pfim]

Don’t know about that, Kean, Gordon, Robinson, Lookman, mostly all got sold because we were impatient with them as they were developing- most thought the four of them wouldn’t be a loss - that’s a good few who are probably making our first team now who left in the last odd five years give or take.

I think historically we have managed these players, very, very badly as a club.

Kean and Lookman didn't come through the academy. It was also more their impatience than ours that they moved on.

Gordon was sold to make ends meet.

Robinson I guess got away, but he developed into that player because he played in the championship and got plenty of time with Fulham. Something that was not available here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the club does a great job with these players. But our academy doesn't churn out talent in droves, so the idea that all these kids need is a "chance" is wrong.

 

[pfim]

It's funny really, I kind of think we do that but too, like we certainly did we Gordon, and to an extend with Barkley too. Barkley was very highly rated, but there's definitely an argument that Gordon would not have been given game time at any of the top teams as a young player, and probably at most Premier league teams. Indeed had it not been for the war, it's probably unlikely he would have got game time here.

You can make a similar case for DCL too.

You look at the top teams, like Nketiah left for Palace, Liverpool have a problem getting games for the likes of Quansag, Elliot, Morton etc who will all leave. City have lost Palmer because they couldn't get him game time.

I think there's a point in time when a player wants to be a "first choice".

So the TLDR from this for me, is that basically everyone struggles to bring in young players, in different ways.

The only teams I see do it tend to be teams like Southampton/Burnley who get relegated, or Brighton who seem to be able to buck the trend.

Brighton loan a ton of talent out as well. Enscio, Sarmiento, Ferguson, Barco. Mitoma spent time on loan. Adingra. Van Hecke.

 

[Neiler]

Kean and Lookman didn't come through the academy. It was also more their impatience than ours that they moved on.

Gordon was sold to make ends meet.

Robinson I guess got away, but he developed into that player because he played in the championship and got plenty of time with Fulham. Something that was not available here.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the club does a great job with these players. But our academy doesn't churn out talent in droves, so the idea that all these kids need is a "chance" is wrong.

As I said mate I think the idea of youth development has to be recruitment and developing organic talent.

All of what you describe make a cocktail and raise questions of our management. In each situation I’d critique our management of the situation - away also from the financial necessity. The fact that each has thrived away from here via developing is telling - we do or did a bad job.

I think we do wonderfully well to churn out players - producing Gordon and Armstrong organicly in a couple of years is outstanding and we can go back. The academy very recently has produced 10s of millions out of necessity - so we actually do quite well in the production, less so in the management.

 

[Neiler]

There's a few who we should have got rid of sooner too. Pennington, Garbutt, Davies, Holgate. Hung around like a bad stink.

If your looking at that as a management team - you are saying why have ones left and thrived and why have others stayed and tanked mate.

 

[Neiler]

Some of those lads forced a move of not all. Redkpm Barkley, Jeffers, dunne and Duffy could have been a real set off players for us

I think it goes back to a root cause mate - why do good young players want to leave.

I dont know why we are scared to admit that we mismanage talent young players we've had.

We talk constantly about how the club has been mismanaged, i dont know why we cant acknowledge that mismanaging young players has been part of it.

 

[pfim]

As I said mate I think the idea of youth development has to be recruitment and developing organic talent.

All of what you describe make a cocktail and raise questions of our management. In each situation I’d critique our management of the situation - away also from the financial necessity. The fact that each has thrived away from here via developing is telling - we do or did a bad job.

I think we do wonderfully well to churn out players - producing Gordon and Armstrong organic in a couple of years is outstanding and we can go back. The academy very recently has produced 10s of millions out of necessity - so we actually do quite well in the production, less so in the management.

Of course, if you're saying we've been mismanaged for years, I don't think that's a wild take...top to bottom, the club was rancid.

Gordon and Armstrong are 6 years apart. If we're producing a PL regular (which Armstrong isn't yet) every six years, I think that's a bit light for the Academy.

In terms of giving younger players a chance, whether through recruitment or the academy, the ones that were good enough were given chances and took them. There will always be exceptions, but to the post that originally started this, Armstrong being on loan at 18 or 19 isn't evidence of us not giving young players a chance. Just the opposite.

I mean, Lookman went to three other clubs before settling in Serie A when he was 25. That's not a good example of lack of patience from Everton.

Kean was a regular for us in 2020, but didn't settle in Serie A again until he was 25. Was Juventus impatient with his development as well?

Gordon was the obvious exception, but he played for us 65 times in the league by the time he was 22, and he obviously (even at the time) would have been a regular starter for us, at the very least, if we didn't need the money.

At some point it's down to the player. If someone starts thriving immediately after leaving, fair play. But at least 3 of those guys you mentioned took years to find their current form. No PL team is going to give a 20 year old 5 more years to find his way.