Current Affairs George Floyd and Minneapolis Unrest

[Pettifogger]

I don't understand your comment

But in a nutshell, personal anecdotes aren't always reality.

Media of all kinds, over the years, have certainly contributed to the narrative to fear black people. Reifer Madness comes to mind as one example. And there are dozens of others. This institutional racism has slowly eroded, but it's still there.

This is reality, even if you can't see it, don't want to admit, or weren't personally taught by your parents to fear black people. This is more societal, more subconscious.

Listen, I don't disagree entirely. The below will probably make you uncomfortable, but it really shouldn't because it's all true.

I don't recall being taught to fear/hate black people. But I was raised in an environment with almost no black people (very early on) before being among quite a lot of black people as I grew up. So I buy into the idea that difference and apprehension can be deeply engrained, even if there was never a racially charged statement made in my house. Anecdotally, I got ambushed once after a game (by black guys I didn't know), and the guys who sought retribution for over it? Black buddies. So I'm sure I had a pretty complicated mix of fear/friend in my system.

But this seems like another scenario where it's all or nothing, where there is no room to discuss actual truths and nuances of those truths, because they make us all feel uncomfortable. The uncomfortable part for me is that my parents and my lovely hometown probably did reinforce some prejudices and biases, even though it wasn't their intent. There were good and not great parts of town based on race. Restaurants for them restaurants for us. Sports, however, broke down a lot of that separation.

The uncomfortable part for those saying "it's all systemic racism" is that in my area pretty much all of the non-family violent crime, and a huge majority of the property crime, is committed by black people. And not all black people, it's almost all from 15-35 year old black men. That's in a city run by black folks, policed by black folks, and home to the world's largest black middle class. It's usually directed toward other black men, sadly. But to white folks too.

So, is it the product of prejudice/bias to get wary when a car full of 18-35 black guys pulls up on your street? Yes. Is it the product of societal-influenced fears? Maybe, but not exclusively. We love to discuss the lived experience of people, unless they're white, in which case their lived experience is to be ignored. If you want to talk about power structures and critical race theory, maybe we should tell white people their experiences should take a backseat and aren't important. But otherwise it makes no sense, and I don't think having half the conversation is very useful. FWIW this isn't a "what about white people thing." I have no interest in being heard about white grievances right now (nor do I really consider white people some cohesive group), but I do have an interest in talking about where biases arise from and contradictory positions society takes on these topics.

 

[Pettifogger]

*for context, let’s not ignore the hundreds of years of oppression and murder of black persons in the US

Why would we? Let's tell the truth.

 

[Death]

Unbelievable.

you gotta messing. That a rubber bullet or??

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Listen, I don't disagree entirely. The below will probably make you uncomfortable, but it really shouldn't because it's all true.

I don't recall being taught to fear/hate black people. But I was raised in an environment with almost no black people (very early on) before being among quite a lot of black people as I grew up. So I buy into the idea that difference and apprehension can be deeply engrained, even if there was never a racially charged statement made in my house. Anecdotally, I got ambushed once after a game (by black guys I didn't know), and the guys who sought retribution for over it? Black buddies. So I'm sure I had a pretty complicated mix of fear/friend in my system.

But this seems like another scenario where it's all or nothing, where there is no room to discuss actual truths and nuances of those truths, because they make us all feel uncomfortable. The uncomfortable part for me is that my parents and my lovely hometown probably did reinforce some prejudices and biases, even though it wasn't their intent. There were good and not great parts of town based on race. Restaurants for them restaurants for us. Sports, however, broke down a lot of that separation.

The uncomfortable part for those saying "it's all systemic racism" is that in my area pretty much all of the non-family violent crime, and a huge majority of the property crime, is committed by black people. And not all black people, it's almost all from 15-35 year old black men. That's in a city run by black folks, policed by black folks, and home to the world's largest black middle class. It's usually directed toward other black men, sadly. But to white folks too.

So, is it the product of prejudice/bias to get wary when a car full of 18-35 black guys pulls up on your street? Yes. Is it the product of societal-influenced fears? Maybe, but not exclusively. We love to discuss the lived experience of people, unless they're white, in which case their lived experience is to be ignored. If you want to talk about power structures and critical race theory, maybe we should tell white people their experiences should take a backseat and aren't important. But otherwise it makes no sense, and I don't think having half the conversation is very useful. FWIW this isn't a "what about white people thing." I have no interest in being heard about white grievances right now (nor do I really consider white people some cohesive group), but I do have an interest in talking about where biases arise from and contradictory positions society takes on these topics.

See this is where you take it to the extreme. No one is saying it's ALL systemic racism. But to ignore it as a major contributing factor is naive and intellectually dishonest.

Are there "bad" black guys? Yes. Just like there are "bad" white people. The problem is that it's far more likely that a "good" black person will be lumped into the "bad" category, simply because they are black, then the other way around. I'm sorry if you don't see this. But as I've lived more and more life on this earth, it's something that I cannot ignore. As someone that grew up in a predominantly lower middle class small town surrounded by white people, this isn't something that was apparent to me growing up.

That's the whole point of all of what's happening right now

 

[Pettifogger]

See this is where you take it to the extreme. No one is saying it's ALL systemic racism. But to ignore it as a major contributing factor is naive and intellectually dishonest.

Kind of a weird punch to throw considering I think I acknowledged your position as credible in my post.

But I don't think you differentiated. You said we were taught to fear. My position is - it's a lot more complicated than that.

ETA: And some are definitely saying "It's all systemic racism." There are a ton of absolutists in this debate (regardless of whether you're one).

 

[SerenityNigh]

Listen, I don't disagree entirely. The below will probably make you uncomfortable, but it really shouldn't because it's all true.

I don't recall being taught to fear/hate black people. But I was raised in an environment with almost no black people (very early on) before being among quite a lot of black people as I grew up. So I buy into the idea that difference and apprehension can be deeply engrained, even if there was never a racially charged statement made in my house. Anecdotally, I got ambushed once after a game (by black guys I didn't know), and the guys who sought retribution for over it? Black buddies. So I'm sure I had a pretty complicated mix of fear/friend in my system.

But this seems like another scenario where it's all or nothing, where there is no room to discuss actual truths and nuances of those truths, because they make us all feel uncomfortable. The uncomfortable part for me is that my parents and my lovely hometown probably did reinforce some prejudices and biases, even though it wasn't their intent. There were good and not great parts of town based on race. Restaurants for them restaurants for us. Sports, however, broke down a lot of that separation.

The uncomfortable part for those saying "it's all systemic racism" is that in my area pretty much all of the non-family violent crime, and a huge majority of the property crime, is committed by black people. And not all black people, it's almost all from 15-35 year old black men. That's in a city run by black folks, policed by black folks, and home to the world's largest black middle class. It's usually directed toward other black men, sadly. But to white folks too.

So, is it the product of prejudice/bias to get wary when a car full of 18-35 black guys pulls up on your street? Yes. Is it the product of societal-influenced fears? Maybe, but not exclusively. We love to discuss the lived experience of people, unless they're white, in which case their lived experience is to be ignored. If you want to talk about power structures and critical race theory, maybe we should tell white people their experiences should take a backseat and aren't important. But otherwise it makes no sense, and I don't think having half the conversation is very useful. FWIW this isn't a "what about white people thing." I have no interest in being heard about white grievances right now (nor do I really consider white people some cohesive group), but I do have an interest in talking about where biases arise from and contradictory positions society takes on these topics.

1) stop watching the news, especially certain outlets which love to do inflammatory stories
2) read books by authors with social and ethnic backgrounds distinct from your own (so no, Thomas Sowell does not fill your “black quota”)
3) your black friends’ experience as adult is hugely different than as kids, it would do well for more people to have friends who will confide with them the experience of a black man in America

 

[Tubey]

you gotta messing. That a rubber bullet or??

Yeah, aftermath in that tweet chain.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

Kind of a weird punch to throw considering I think I acknowledged your position as credible in my post.

But I don't think you differentiated. You said we were taught to fear. My position is - it's a lot more complicated than that.

I actually didn't think I was throwing a punch to be honest. Of course it's a lot more complicated.

My point about being taught to fear still stands. It's true that media over time has taught us to fear, whether through gov't policy, the fact that local news shows urban crime as the lead b/c it gets ratings, or whatever else. Any personal anecdotes can seem to intensify whatever we've been led to believe from day one.

 

[Pittsburgh Footy]

1) stop watching the news, especially certain outlets which love to do inflammatory stories
2) read books by authors with social and ethnic backgrounds distinct from your own (so no, Thomas Sowell does not fill your “black quota”)
3) your black friends’ experience as adult is hugely different than as kids, it would do well for more people to have friends who will confide with them the experience of a black man in America

This point in particular is the silent, subconscious type of "teaching whites to fear blacks" that's been going on forever

 

[Pettifogger]

I actually didn't think I was throwing a punch to be honest. Of course it's a lot more complicated.

My point about being taught to fear still stands. It's true that media over time has taught us to fear, whether through gov't policy, the fact that local news shows urban crime as the lead b/c it gets ratings, or whatever else. Any personal anecdotes can seem to intensify whatever we've been led to believe from day one.

For me, personal interactions usually undermine (in a good way) statistical realities and news stories. And I've heard black people in this city say the same.

But because it's relevant to the topic, it goes both ways. Fearmongering media doesn't just tell white people to fear black people. It tells black people to fear us, don't you think?

And I'm conflicted on the urban crime portion. Sure, sensationalized news is a problem. Any random killing (robbery, etc.) is going to capture the public's attention more than a murder suicide. Not sure how you balance the interests of public demand, information and the desire to not sensationalize.

 

[Prevenger17]

It tells black people to fear us, don't you think?

I think the videos of cops killing black people with impunity is probably a bit more responsible for that fear tbh

 

[Pettifogger]

I think the videos of cops killing black people with impunity is probably a bit more responsible for that fear tbh

This is where honest debate breaks down. Impunity? The cops are in jail and cities are on fire. You can claim "but for the camera" and that's valid.

It's simply a double standard. If Fox News shows a video of a white couple defending a store being beaten to a pulp by black rioters, it'll be "that's sensationalism." But murder porn (as Killer Mike in my city called it) isn't?

 

[Prevenger17]

It's simply a double standard. If Fox News shows a video of a white couple defending a store being beaten to a pulp by black rioters, it'll be "that's sensationalism." But murder porn (as Killer Mike in my city called it) isn't?

Nobody calls it sensationalism. It's appalling. But we're talking about the roots of the problem here, not the riots that happen as a result. You say that the media is training black people to fear white people, but there is a long history of cops killing unarmed black people needlessly, and that's only the ones we know about because they were caught on camera. Maybe that's why black people are afraid of cops. Is that not possible?

 

[Grinch]

Not sure why this struck me, but she's in a batman costume.

Looks like an optical illusion to me. Pointing to the guys left but it looks like it is pointing at the kid and father

 

[Pettifogger]

Nobody calls it sensationalism. It's appalling. But we're talking about the roots of the problem here, not the riots that happen as a result. You say that the media is training black people to fear white people, but there is a long history of cops killing unarmed black people needlessly, and that's only the ones we know about because they were caught on camera. Maybe that's why black people are afraid of cops. Is that not possible?

I think it's both. I don't think black fears of cops are fabricated or simply the product of sensationalism. I don't think black fears of whites are either. But do I think the level of fear matches up to the realities? No, I don't. The common response to that opinion is "well you don't walk in their shoes" and no, I don't. But then we get back to the hypocrisy of lived experience being relevant in some contexts and suppressed in others.

My black neighbor down the street doesn't like to go for a walk without his dog or his wife/kids. Why? Because he has a fear someone will make a scene, call the cops and who knows what'll happen. The last part isn't very rational, regardless of what happens his chances of being harmed are statistically very low. But do I think it's simply the product of sensationalism? No of course not.

I do think "you can be gunned down with impunity just for walking down the street" is an oversimplification and not helpful. And yes, I think that's the type of rhetoric that enlarges the threat in the minds of people who already had experience-based fears.

And yes, plenty of people would call that sensationalism. People on both sides do this a lot - "nobody calls this sensationalism" or "nobody wants to take your guns" etc., despite plenty of people on the same ideological plane saying exactly those things. You may not, and if so, good.